Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd support

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Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd support

Postby golinux » 2018-10-15 01:06

Many of us knew this day would come. The lock-in is nearly complete.
Holger Levsen Sat, 13 Oct 2018 04:15:19 -0700
On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 06:01:43AM +0100, Ben Hutchings wrote:
> > Has policy changed regarding support for multiple inits, or is it just that
> > no one is maintaining the shim and sysvinit-core?
>
> The latter. systemd-shim has been orphaned for over 2 years, and has
> RC bugs. sysvinit currently has two maintainers, but they've only
> ever made one upload (over a year ago).

It seems that these facts are either largely ignored or unknown and I
wonder if some noise should be made so that interested people can pick
up the work now and not only complain later.

Source: The debian-devel mail list.

As Christopher Barry said in his Aug 12 2014 Open letter to the Linux World:
OneLinux == zero-choice
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Re: Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd supp

Postby yeti » 2018-10-15 04:57

golinux wrote:Many of us knew this day would come. The lock-in is nearly complete.

Debian really knows how to scare away old friends. :-(
I'm using Debian since some 0.9ish version that did not even have a toystory name but systemd was one step too far in the wrong direction! More than half of my systems now are running Devuan and that number will increase until only 3 (i386, amd64, armhf) Debian systems will be left to stay in touch (be completely compatible) with some friends not moving away from Debian.

It hurts ... but it is the right decision for me.

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Re: Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd supp

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2018-10-15 05:13

I think this is a good decision for Debian, the systemd-shim has been unmaintained for so long that shipping it with the release seems unwise.

@golinux: is Devuan going with openrc-init?

I really can't understand why people still like that old sysvinit dinosaur :?
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Re: Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd supp

Postby golinux » 2018-10-15 07:18

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:I think this is a good decision for Debian, the systemd-shim has been unmaintained for so long that shipping it with the release seems unwise.
It's been a slow death but that was part of the plan.
@golinux: is Devuan going with openrc-init?
It is already an option in ascii. Some recent discussion here. sysvinit will still be available.
I really can't understand why people still like that old sysvinit dinosaur :?
Because it just works (tm) and still preferable to you-know-what.
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Re: Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd supp

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2018-10-15 18:14

golinux wrote:still preferable to you-know-what

But not preferable to openrc-init, surely?

Anyway, sorry for the off-topic diversion.
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Re: Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd supp

Postby bdtc1 » 2018-10-17 20:50

Further discussion in the dev thread mentioned above indicates that effort is being made to keep sysvinit.
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Re: Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd supp

Postby golinux » 2018-10-17 23:19

bdtc1 wrote:Further discussion in the dev thread mentioned above indicates that effort is being made to keep sysvinit.

Yes, a lot of internal discussion is going on. The possibility of cooperation between Debian and Devuan looks promising.
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Re: Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd supp

Postby jmgibson1981 » 2018-10-24 21:04

Seems to be a waste of time to keep doing sysv. As time progresses stuff will diverge more and more from sysv to systemd and it will be a massive effort to keep things working the old way. The amount of patching and modification will simply be to much to maintain both ways of doing things short of forking every single service and program that uses either or. Sysv will die. People will life support it as long as they can but you have to pull the plug at some point. People can go to devuan, slackware, whatever else. In the end it won't matter. Systemd is here to stay, nothing will change that short of some major horrible vulnerabilities that cause everyone to drop it. Those sysv distros will die sooner or later.
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Re: Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd supp

Postby yeti » 2018-10-24 21:20

golinux wrote:Yes, a lot of internal discussion is going on. The possibility of cooperation between Debian and Devuan looks promising.

You'll drop us a line or even some more of them if there is good news?
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Re: Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd supp

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2018-10-25 17:09

golinux wrote:The lock-in is nearly complete

Not at all :)

I've just noticed these two new additions to the Debian buster repositories:

https://packages.debian.org/buster/openrc

https://packages.debian.org/buster/runit-init

The openrc package was already in stretch but for buster it will include the /sbin/openrc-init binary that can be used as a drop-in replacement for systemd as PID1, see my old guide for the details:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=134915

The runit-init package used to be in stretch when it was still testing but some halfwit[1] got it removed just before the release; it has been re-added for buster.

So Debian buster will have a choice of no fewer than three separate programs for use as PID1 and openrc can be used to replace systemd's process supervision as well; buster also has s6 available as another alternative supervisor.

How awesome is that? Go Debian!

[1] It was me!
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Re: Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd supp

Postby golinux » 2018-10-25 17:42

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:The openrc package was already in stretch but for buster it will include the /sbin/openrc-init binary that can be used as a drop-in replacement for systemd as PID

And sysvinit is also alive and well. Continuing init freedom in Debian is in part happening because of cooperation with Devuan devs who have stepped up to the plate. ;) If you read any of the dev lists, you would have a better understanding of what's going on.
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Re: Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd supp

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2018-10-25 18:08

golinux wrote:And sysvinit is also alive and well. Continuing init freedom in Debian is in part happening because of cooperation with Devuan devs who have stepped up to the plate. ;)

Wow, that is amazing news, thanks for letting us know.

golinux wrote:If you read any of the dev lists, you would have a better understanding of what's going on.

Yes, very true, thank you for the fine advice, I must admit that I've never bothered with the Debian lists because the distribution moves so slowly that I didn't think it was worth it; also, I like surprises :mrgreen:
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Re: Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd supp

Postby pylkko » 2018-10-25 19:17

Sometimes you have to think that if for every line you can read on the internet bitching and complaining about systemd there was an equivalent amount of effort by these people to help the alternative projects, then these other projects would have already surpassed systemd in functionality and popularity years ago. And I don't say this just to provoke, it really is not that hard to participate in software projects. there are more projects out there than there are volunteers. You can use them all without returning anything to them, but if some particular project is really quasi-religiously important to you, then you will do a great favour for your own sanity and other people's well being if you invest some time and energy into creating new stuff instead of just tearing down stuff. And obviously, the projects also need other talent than just coders (like documentation, translation of the programs, graphic design, all kind of stuff).

The more ways there are to construct a Debian system in the future the better. OpenRC sounds really interesting and I had never even heard of runit-init before.
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Re: Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd supp

Postby thenewguy » 2018-11-11 00:03

Hi all. Sorry I'm late to this thread, but I wanted to jump in and share some updates.

1. Members of the Debian and Devuan teams are working together on the SysV init package, as well as elogind in order to keep these packages healthy and maintained in Debian. I can't speak to the systemd-shim package, but I'm happy to report that it looks like init implementation diversity is being maintained in Debian. sysv, systemd and runit all look to be healthy options for Debian 10 Buster.

2. Most of the coding bugs and documentation issues reported in Debian's issue tracker against SysV init have been dealt with upsteam. A few people are looking into script/packaging issues downstream.

3. A new version of sysvinit-core will be released around early December to give it time to get into Buster when the feature freeze hits in January. This should in turn help Devuan when their next release comes out. Not to mention MX Linux and antiX will be able to use the new, fixed (and faster) sysvinit code.

- SysV upstream dev
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