Is it just me...

[sickpig]

I suppose some were born as Debian certified experts bypassing the N00b stage altogether. Thus making it ok for them to "haze" N00bs.

[cuckooflew]

Yes exactly, like my grandfather was.

[cuckooflew]

It's not helpful to do searches for people as they will keep coming back for the same.

Like everything in life, it depends on the circumstances, etc. But I disagree, not all of them just "come back for the same", yes, I do agree some do, but to others it is helpful, some times it takes a lot of searching , and not just searching, but reading the results to see which ones might be of use, some times the person with the problem may actually be very busy and not have time to spend hours doing searches, other times maybe their "free time", when they can get online is limited, in those cases they appreciate when someone does take the time. Some actually even do say than kyou as well
Others really do not have a clue as to how to do a effective search, and giving them some examples, examples of keywords, and how the error message it self is often sufficient , so not only does it help them solve the current problem , maybe, but it also helps them learn how to do better searches their selves,.. of course , yes others take advantage, and just continue not bothering, after a while it is obvious they will never do anything their selves and that is a good time to just ignore them, but that is not a excuse or reason to not help those that need and appreciate the help. ... In any event, and some people might not read this, since they see me as a horrible person, and consider me a "foe", but any way I apologize , I can not be perfect like those others, and any way, I will still continue to try to help others any way I can, even if it is just taking the time to do some searches for them,..the "thank you's" are appreciated. With that said, guess that is all for now. Except, one more thing:
Some times it does seem like we have a lot of members that seem to have nothing better to do then "bash" everyone else's efforts, and "bash" the newbies for not knowing everything, but really it is just a few... for the most part , this forum has a pretty good bunch of active members, and many are very helpful. Maybe "it is just me",that thinks it is helpful to not only tell others to do searches, but to do some for them and teach them.

[NFT5]

It's not helpful to do searches for people as they will keep coming back for the same. Teach them to fish, don't give them fish, otherwise it encourages help-vampirism.

I think that sunrat's on the money here. Doing searches for people is not teaching them how to fish. Worse, it's easily taken as being condescending and doesn't encourage any change in behaviour. I note the recent return of what is probably the most prolific help vampire I've ever seen and, after nearly 400 posts, nothing has changed, other than the topics have become slightly more technical. What's more notable, in my view anyway, is that he hasn't once given anything back to the forum by way of help to others, nor has he ever said "thanks" for the help he's been given.

[cuckooflew]

Yea, but like I said, it depends on the situation. I have noticed one, actually more then 1, not sure for sure if it is the same one your referring to or not though. So guess I am a horrible person, so be it. Some times telling them " I did this search for you " is also enough of a hint , it might be taken as condescending , that is fine with me, logic would be to start doing your own searches, if it is condescending when some one does it for you and tells you they did.
But any way, I apologize again, for not being so perfect as others, besides that I enjoy doing the searches, I learn a lot in the process. If the moderators or admins decide that it is evil to do searches for others , they can all ways delete any posts that are results of doing that.
Of course just ignoring posts that are easily answered just doing a search, but , then 98% of the posts would be getting ignored. And the clueless newbie would never know that someone found the answer just by doing a search. It might be better though to just suggest that they do a search, and leave it at that, but that is condescending as well, and almost all ways they will say they did. I have better things to do though then arguing about if it is good or bad to do searches for someone, it is pointless and it depends on the situation. It will not change my way of doing things any way. I also will give a stranger in need or asking for a meal, (we have a restaurant) Some people think that giving them a meal or a handout is bad, and it just encourages them to keep "begging", but I just don't see it that way, so the same, I help them , and let them go on down the road, I could not live with myself very well if I turned them down, and just let them go hungry,.. I suppose that is different , but not really. Of course for those that don't want to help with searches, that is fine as well,nobody is obligated to do that.

[NFT5]

No need to apologise, I admire your altruism. I was speaking from my own experience as a Moderator on another forum over the last 10 years. The rules there are quite strict and we found, in the early days, that there was a fine line between being perceived as helpful or antagonistic. The RTFM approach didn't work, nor did actually doing the searches. More helpful was something like "Try a search with [this parameter]". That way we were telling them how to do it, without actually doing it for them. We used to draw a lot of criticism for what was seen as an officious, overly strict application of the rules and warnings and bannings were common. These days I don't think that I've issued more than one warning in the last year and the only bannings have been spammers. More importantly we've regained a reputation as a source of good knowledge and the community spirit has returned.

Returning to altruism, its problem is that it has a cost. As you'd appreciate, you can only hand out so many free meals before it impacts on your business. It's sad to see people highly motivated to help others burn out - certainly happened here, and lots of other places, many times in the past.

[sunrat]

Others really do not have a clue as to how to do a effective search, and giving them some examples, examples of keywords, and how the error message it self is often sufficient , so not only does it help them solve the current problem , maybe, but it also helps them learn how to do better searches their selves,..

I too appreciate your efforts and this above is IMHO the best way to help. People who need to be fed answers are never going to develop powers of logical deduction which are the core of using Debian most efficiently. Teach them how to find answers. Everyone who helps regularly had to learn how at some time.

[neuraleskimo]

Going back to what sunrat said about his/her foe list, I would be honored to be on your foe list. Just kidding. There is one person I have seen who I have a low opinion of. Most due to his demeanor. I would hope that someone would feel free to tell me I am a jerk. Ok, you all can taunt me mercilessly. But, I do think it is fair to say don’t be a jerk and to say it without being mean.

[cuckooflew]

Out of context , this won't make sense, but to some one it will,...any way
I got drifting off topic , and decided to cut the text, and post it here, probably it is just me,
But in any event, I am going to take a few days off and do some other things, considerably more important then what goes on here, .. this is what I wrote:

but after all said and done, do what you want. But then why ask for advice , if and when you don't intend to use it ?....Not saying that shoe fits you, just saying, we do get a lot of that, people ask us how, and when we tell them, do it this way, then they come back with, oh but I don't want to do it that way, I need to do it this way,... Why do people ask , when they have no intention of using any of the answers ? Why do they get so up set when we suggest trying to do a search ?, sorry, guess that is another topic. Which goes back to why I see it is best if I just don't post any more, a stupid old fart like me does not have anything useful to say any way. Have a good day.

Yes, I know I am a real arse, and sometimes not very nice at all, that's the way I am, but any way, I going to stay away for a few days, maybe longer,..who knows ?
Time is running out now, for me, and it is time to go take care of real life stuff, ...guess I have wasted enough time on this,...it all was just to pass the time anyway.

[Deb-fan]

^ Absolutely, if you cease enjoying something, quit doing it or when you have more important things, definitely the same. Whatever you/we do, nothing wrong with doing it on our terms when possible. This is not all that serious of a thing and is meant to be entertaining or positive, at least should be. You can still do as much or little as you like @cuckooflew but when it becomes more of a hassle than it's worth, nothing wrong with taking a break.

*<wrote this before reading your @cuckooflew's post>*

Some things I've noticed which help at least in terms of forum burn-out. Helps to take a break, take a day or two, if you have a tendency towards being a Nix forum addict(I've gone through such phases) sometimes helps imposing a daily limit too, 3-5 posts on a given forum/dy and then doing something else.

Also think it can help to keep in mind we're all volunteers, just cause someone is asking for help on something or requesting others share info or things they've learned about something doesn't mean anyone is obligated to help them. Definitely helps to recognize when you're taking something too seriously. The fate of the world does not rest on some nix noob figuring out why some trivial thing isn't working the way they prefer. Personally been trying to stick to threads which for whatever reason pique some interest, also like to see the person is honestly trying to learn and research, making a reasonable effort themselves, things such as providing basic info, hardware, OS version involved, software etc etc. If they can't be bothered to do basic common sense things like that, I don't see much reason to care about their problems. If it's something they could've/should've easily figured out via search engine search, then again ... am not bothering wasting time explaining anything to them or doing a here let me google that for you type of affair.

Though also try to shoot for the if you have nothing nice &-or constructive to say, why bother posting ? Often have started typing out a scathing, mega-flame response to somebody I feel is being an azzhat and go ah, screw it, nothing good will come of this, so what's the point ... Abandon post. Same for in real life, only a practical principle to try to live by, negativity spreads, can be contagious, so even when having a bad dy make more effort to be nice and put out positive karma for whoever I come in contact with.

Yep, there's always going to be nixers which rub others wrong. With the way many such types conduct themselves, the total lack of competence, basic common sense and reasoning nor anything resembling making reasonable effort, often see the give a fish vs teach to fish thing mentioned, for these type of nixers, feel more like they should be fed to the fish or like the mafia says, should be sleeping with the fishes. Surely no great loss to humanity ... Ah but whatever. A few nixers here I never even bother reading anything they post or threads they've started cause I know it'll only irritate me. Bottomline it's my-your choice and nothing wrong with simply scrolling on by and skip the irritation.

Now to end with a positive.

Lil girl asks, "Daddy ... what are clouds made out of ?"
Dad ... "Mostly linux servers honey."

[kedaha]

Is it just me... but I see the forum as a welcome space to read posts by other people who, like myself use Debian and find a little respite here from the daily, endless onslaught of news about Covid. I'm glad that there's been hardly any discussion about it here despite the fact it affects us all. I had quite forgotten about Bill Gates until the WHO declared a pandemic on March 11 of this year and was quite surprised to learn afterwards that he had become some kind of world vaccine supremo. But I would far sooner read and perhaps comment on the topics being discussed on this forum.

[stevepusser]

I live in a conservative part of California, and you'd be surprised by the number of whackjobs here that insist that the virus is a hoax and that Bill is taking advantage of it to inject everyone with tracking devices along with the "fake vaccine", ignoring the laws of physics that mean microscopic antennas simply will not work to transmit radio.

I mean, there's already plenty of computer-related reasons to hate him and MS, but this is not one.

[golinux]

The Gates Foundation is no stranger to those of us who have been dealing with the GMO debacle for decades. Bill is out to capture world agriculture for corporate profit and in the process is destroying local agricultural systems and communities. AGRA Watch is keeping track of the shenanigans in Africa.

[kedaha]

Out of idle curiosity I did a search for keywords for "debain" on this site which resulted in:

Search found 1510 matches: +debain

Perhaps a Debian spin-off distro called "debain" should be made with it's own forum called "Debain User Forums."
I have now increased the count to 1514
"windoze" currently stands at 687 matches: +windoze and
"windblows" only 32 matches.
So "debain" is the out-and-out winner.

[sunrat]

Haha yeah, I often wonder if they approach administration of their computer with the same care they take in posting. I'm certainly less inclined to help anyone who writes "debain". (1515 now )
And that person starting with "h" who has well over 400 posts, none for which a search has been performed prior, needs to be ignored by everyone. I stopped replying to them at least 100 posts ago.

[Deb-fan]

^ Really think he's a convo-bot, never bother even reading anything he/it posts. Errrr ... also I may be the other guy on Sunrat's ignore list, so he might not see this, lmfao.

Errrr I actually do use the ignore list now, never used to do it and since I'll often pop into the forum without signing in, needless to say it's not all that effective. Per usual with an evergrowing list of nixers I just pretty much scroll past anything they post, that ALWAYS works, scrolling will never let you down. Anyway, also came to vent a bit ... As follows.

I've come up with a project which I think may be vital to technology, here's the outline of what I have in mind. We must develop something whereas remotely, when certain codes are entered and buttons pushed, a large digital fist comes out of a computer monitor and punches the person sitting in front of the targeted terminal in their stupid face.

Just envision it, random nix user who clearly doesn't know which end of a search engine to type words into, posts yet more idiotic nonsense on whichever nix fori ? Those who clearly can't quite wrap their heads around RTFM ? Help vamp or troll infestation ? Hair brained conspiracy theorist starts rambling on about the Qwinaks from zebular 14 infiltrating our governments to take over the girl scouts of amercia ? Some responsible party somewhere flips the switch and WHAM justice is served, balance restored. All the not braindead, not lazy, non-azztastic or obnoxiously mentally ill of the world can let out a collective sigh of relief and get on with their lives in peace.

Of course I also strongly feel only myself and a small select group of others should be given access to the controls of this tech. Such shouldn't be used willy nilly. Who's with me or wishes to contribute some cash to this ??? Your techno-talents or financial contribution could make the world a better place ... one black-eye at a time. Any interest and I'll set up a gofundme for this or something.

Yep participating in this type of thing can be frustrating. Though end-of-day it's still voluntary. It used to be fun helping folks figure whatever issues they're having out or rambling about whatever tech and gnu/Linux oriented stuff, hasn't been for a long time now, thus why I've taken to avoiding the help sections of forums like the plague. Constantly catching myself wanting to bash or spew negative stuff at people and that's not going to accomplish anything positive, so why do it ?

Posting RTFM, GOOGLE YOU FRIGGIN AZZTARD over and over or UBUNTU IS THAT WAY YOU MORON etc cannot possibly serve any useful purpose. Still do want to eventually find some meaningful way to contribute to Debian and greater open source. Will eventually send in some cash, nothing says I wuv and support you like cold hard cash.

Have come to believe more gnu/nix users is a good thing, means all the efforts, time + talent all those who have made contributions to Debian and open source are getting recognized are making progress. What the hell good would all this amazing technology be if only 150thousand people around the world got access to it ? I mean in terms of consumer electronics and casual users like myself vs strictly IT-pros and supergeeks being able to benefit or understand any of it.

So in a somewhat odd( often really annoying) way the people who seem like they can't even find the power button and successfully turn on their computer without screwing it up are contributing to open source, just by their use of it. More people using it, more commercial interest, more doors opening in areas they wouldn't without numbers.

Printers that work, graphics cards, stuff for gamers, all points in-between. OEM's wouldn't ever give the slightest chit if only 4000 geeks living in the parents basements used gnu/Nix. Userbase starts getting up into 10's of millions, Canonical Inc claims 40mil installs itself and people start paying attention to the platform. As yeppers, nothing says I luv you gnu/Linux like some big money to be made selling stuff to those who use it.

On a hopefully positive note, a dorkish observation. Humor helps, it's better to laugh, than cry about something. We can't control many things, what other people do, don't do etc but all of us have a good deal of control over ourselves, how we allow things to affect us. Letting something stupid or someone stupid bring you down is a waste of time, a choice and for every tarded and crappy thing in the world there's just as many wonderous and amazing things going on or to focus on too.

[Deb-fan]

Me again + too much coffee ... again.

Here goes, I want to do a shout-out to one of my favoritest nix noob types.

NN(nix-noob:) Hey guys I'm new to linux, esp Debian, so ummmm, explain it like I'm a 5yr old who doesn't know anything about linux okay ?

Me: Ah I see, talk to you like a 5yr old and don't use any technical terms to describe technology ? Gotcha ... mmmm, ....... sure thing .... Turn off that computer and go to your room lil Miss/Mister, NOW ! And don't come out until you've RTFM ! LMAO. How's that ?

footnotes: There was a bit more ranting intended to go along with but opted to cut that stuff out and just go with the funny part.