Should there be a mentor system

[edbarx]

I don't think there is the need of a one to one mentoring system, the forum is enough. Posting in a forum exposes a problem to many people simultaneously increasing the chance of getting an answer and more importantly, does not put unnecessary pressure on the respondents. I think, the only change that is required, is a change in attitude, although the great majority of respondents are very nice with beginners. My point is that one has to keep in mind that learning is a complex process involving motivation and reinforcement through the feeling of success, and in this forum, also through the feeling of being accepted in the Debian community.

Beginners have to keep in mind that learning Debian may, like anything, offer its own tough challenges. If I speak for myself, I started to be interested in Debian around May 2006. Then I decided it was too difficult for me and uninstalled it and remained without it for one year, during which, I continued to learn about Linux/Debian through the use of the internet. Then, about a year ago, I decided to take the plunge with all its risks. Reading the Debian Reference helped me to start to think more positively of Debian. After that, I could use some new CLI commands. Learning basic UNIX commands helped me get more confidence.

[Bizurke]

I have to say that I have mixed emotions on this issue. I like the idea of being able to help people wanting to get a start with debian and helping to make the community grow. I myself had a friend who would help me when I got in a really tough spot in my first couple years of using GNU/Linux as my only OS. I'm very grateful for his help and he made some situations that seemed doomed work out in my favor. However upon looking back I realize that my learning rate was drastically reduced when I knew in the back of my head that if I couldn't figure it out that he would tell me how to fix it. Since breaking ties with this individual I have been forced to learn everything I need to know for myself and be ten times more diligent in my googling and reading and I tend to have a better understanding of what is going on when I do read something. After a little over 4 years of nothing but Linux as my OS I should be a guru but in reality I just consider myself a very comfortable user of Debian.

Mentor's can be a great asset to the new user but they should only be used in the case of epic failure or as a place to ask questions on how to learn something. I would have no problem with a newbie asking me for some resources so that they can learn to fix their own problems, but would get very angry if the person contacted me nearly every day with small questions that can be answered with a simple man page or google search.

[drokmed]

Not to be negative, but this virtual mentor system idea is dreaming. Sure, it would be great if a mentor could help bring someone up to speed, but I don't think that is the right approach.

The whole point IMHO of learning linux is learning how to research things for yourself, from many sources, including forums (not just here), doc's, man pages, how-to's, mailing lists, local clubs, etc. And the most important? The hands-on experience. You will learn best when you try the different options for yourself. There are two many ways to do the same thing... you have to find "your way". Hell, we can't even agree on one standard GUI system. You have to try them all, then decide.

These forums serve their purpose beautifully... you ask a question, and if people can help, they will. If not, keep researching for yourself.

[ComputerBob]

It takes a village to raise a new Linux user.

[Ook]

These forums serve their purpose beautifully... you ask a question, and if people can help, they will. If not, keep researching for yourself.

It works the other way too. If you get a solution you don't like, you're not compelled to continue. It was a casual, hit or miss, arrangement in the first place.

And, as happens on unfortunate occassion, people can be a jerk instead of helping. Maybe it would be inadvisable for the cause of Debian. But it is a forum, one shouldn't be taking jerkiness too seriouly.

[Vorian Grey]

For a one on one mentor kind of help I'm not sure a webforum is the best thing.

That's what I was thinking.

[bookie]

Hi everyone, I have been away from Linux for a while and saw this thread about a mentor ship.

The idea is nice Don't want to sound biassed - but I have been helped a lot by Red-guy as well as several others on this forum. Even though I haven't been paying attention for a while new ideas are always an interesting topic of conversation

I have found that on this forum the help is usually very good and it has been enough for my needs! For complete beginners (like we all were once upon a time) I am like Red-guy. I want to help everyone, so that they don't get despondent and leave Linux with a bad taste in their mouths .

I think like a lot of the others here that there is no better way than of learning Linux than "getting your feet wet" and that means working from the ground up!

I have had a lot of success with Linux due to the old "try"and "try again" method, and a lot of help from you guys. The problem with that approach is that you learn a lot but can miss out important learning stages that are necessary for really understanding Linux.

I have gone back to basics to get a more informed and thorough understanding of Linux - which of course takes time What I mean is even though I was getting a lot of success I wasn't really understanding why! I don't think there is an easy way with Linux! One can always take a distro like Mandriva, where you can avoid working with Linux from a terminal, but that is for those who want to be eased into Linux without getting their feet wet! Please don't get me wrong! You can still work from a terminal with Mandriva - it's just that Mandriva is one of the more user friendly of distros for those changing from Windows to Linux without all the hassle!


If you really want to learn Linux, then time is a factor to be considered

For those of us that really want to learn Linux from the ground up, then a "book corner" would be also nice. Of course we can "google" like everyone else, but it is nice to be recommended a book that gives you the basic "ins" and "outs" of Linux with references to further reading

Sorry for rambling on It's my age LOL

bookie

[rogerdugans]

Ok, I am going to post as someone who is NOT a Debian Guru, or even a linux guru; I am someone who has messed about with linux for a long while and can generally find my way around....

The idea of a mentoring system is nice, in a way, but in general it seems to me unworkable as a formalized system.

Over the years of my linux use, with various distros, I have had a number of different people "mentor" me through different aspects of the system.
I have also "mentored" a number of people for periods of time and/or specific needs.

This HAS been a great help, but is usually the result of asking somebody for assistance and receiving it on a one-to-one, personal basis. I think trying to set up some sort of system to organize it in general is unlikely to work well, and I'll tell you why:

Willingness. Most folks who are NEW to linux generally (approximately) fit one of two groups:
*those who WANT to learn and will go to great lengths to do so.
*those who want somebody to set up their system for them, and make it easy

The first group will search, try things, screw things up and ask questions. Sometimes badly formed questions, and yes, sometimes they will get harassed for that, although NOT as often as they used to when I was starting...
People in this group WILL find people willing to mentor them in one form or another.

The second group (yes, few are truly as bad as that, but many act like that to a degree. Including ME at times) really does not want to put a lot of effort into learning linux, and I can understand that, really. But if you don't want to practice driving a car, don't expect to be handed a drivers' license...
Mentoring those who don't WISH to listen and learn does not seem likely to work very well.


The single most important things I was taught by those who mentored me was HOW to find answers myself.
They did not teach me how to write scripts, though they would point me to websites that helped and check stuff I had written. They would help once I began to have a clue, but until I developed that first clue, all they would do is send me on my way to man pages and how-tos.
(Note- I am still lousy with scripts due to lack of need. )

Doesn't matter how good the Teacher is unless the Student is teachable.
When the Student is ready, the Teacher will appear.

This is both my experience and opinion, and may differ greatly from that of others.

[didi]

I don't think a one-2-one mentoring system is a good way to go, forums like this one is more useful to me, since I can also see other ppls problems and hopefully their solution.

What I do find is that there are a whole lot of very small threads which address a very specific problem from a certain user and when that problem has been fixed the thread dies.
The consequence of that is that there are a whole lot of threads to go through if you have, for example, a problem with sound on your Debian box.
What I would prefer is for a smaller amount of bigger threads, like "How to fix sound problems (in Debian)" in where ppl would post all their sound related problems. In the opening post there could be instructions like what info to provide in order to get some appropriate help. An explanation as to why to provide certain info would help newbies understand what they should start to look at when having a certain kind of problem.
So not just say "Post the output of lspci" but also explain what kind of (useful) info that would provide (related to the problem).
That means that if I have a similar problem down the road I know where to start looking for the problem as opposed to being total clueless where to start.

Another issue I've found when trying to find answers to problems I encounter is that a lot of info is outdated. So the clues given to solve a problem at that time don't apply anymore. But I don't have the knowledge (yet) to distinguish between info that's still relevant and info that is outdated.
When I find some kind of tutorial on the net which is more then a year old, I usually just disregard it, since it's probably not accurate anymore (which is a big assumption on my part).
tldp.org is a great site, but most of their tutorials/HOW-TOs are severely outdated or not accurate when applied to a Debian system.

The HOW-TO section on this forum is absolutely great, thanks for that
But also there the info seems to get outdated, which will only get updated if the poster of the HOW-TO wants to/has time to update it to the current situation.
Outdated HOW-TOs will not help newbies get a grasp of the problem (and the solution), but will only hinder/off put them in learning their Debian system.

I do like the idea of a wiki or sth like that.
If we would 'convert' the HOW-TOs to wiki articles and provide a link in them to a discussion thread on this forum for further discussion, that would be great. Also when the discussion would conclude that the info in the wiki is outdated, the community could update the wiki article.
That way the wiki would be an excellent starting point for newbies to learn about their system and a point to search further if reading that doesn't help them enough. It would also mean we're not dependant on the poster of the HOW-TO to update it, since it could be done by the community.

My 2 cents

[GNU.Wasabi]

I do like the idea of a wiki or sth like that.

Someone actually read my post! Victory!

[simen]

When the Student is ready, the Teacher will appear.

GNU Taoism.

--Simen

[drokmed]

When I find some kind of tutorial on the net which is more then a year old, I usually just disregard it, since it's probably not accurate anymore

Years ago, I would agree, but nowadays, "good" how-to's are few IMHO. I don't consider a list of commands a good how-to. If a command fails, you are often screwed. It must make some attempt to explain what and why.

The first thing I look for is a DATE on the document, which is usually missing. If it is less than three or four years old, and is well written, I will still use it. For example, a good how-to based on Debian Sarge will usually work on Etch mostly, requiring some fixes. I usually try to find at least 3 or 4 how-to's on a subject before beginning the learning process on a new task.

I do like the idea of a wiki or sth like that.
If we would 'convert' the HOW-TOs to wiki articles and provide a link in them to a discussion thread on this forum for further discussion, that would be great. Also when the discussion would conclude that the info in the wiki is outdated, the community could update the wiki article.

There is a wiki:

http://wiki.debian.org/FrontPage

There is a LOT of great information on it. Unfortunately, there is a LOT of old info too. I am in the habit of browsing it using the "RecentChanges" option:

http://wiki.debian.org/RecentChanges

The single most important things I was taught by those who mentored me was HOW to find answers myself.

I agree completely.

[katofiad]

I think the current system works great. You post your question, get three or four half-hearted responses, one RTFM, and one really overly enthusiastic person who unfortunately knows a great deal less about the problem then you already do, forcing you to figure it all out by yourself and consequently learn the most you possibly could about your computer.

[JohnDeere630]

I think the current system works great. You post your question, get three or four half-hearted responses, one RTFM, and one really overly enthusiastic person who unfortunately knows a great deal less about the problem then you already do, forcing you to figure it all out by yourself and consequently learn the most you possibly could about your computer.

Don't forget the gratuitous insults, usually misspelled.

All that and it is free as well! What more could you ask?

[katofiad]

What more could you ask?

Why can't it be more like Ubuntu?

[didi]

When I find some kind of tutorial on the net which is more then a year old, I usually just disregard it, since it's probably not accurate anymore

Years ago, I would agree, but nowadays, "good" how-to's are few IMHO. I don't consider a list of commands a good how-to. If a command fails, you are often screwed. It must make some attempt to explain what and why.

I do agree with that, but I haven't come across many HOW-TOs that do also provide proper background to it.
However, I still find them valuable since it at least gives me a starting point.

The first thing I look for is a DATE on the document, which is usually missing. If it is less than three or four years old, and is well written, I will still use it. For example, a good how-to based on Debian Sarge will usually work on Etch mostly, requiring some fixes. I usually try to find at least 3 or 4 how-to's on a subject before beginning the learning process on a new task.

In the couple of months that I've been playing/using Lenny I already found stuff changing significantly. For example where the programs store their configuration file, the structure of those files, with what programs/libraries they interact with, etc.
Therefore I (usually) don't bother with Sarge based articles, not because I think you're wrong, but I lack the knowledge/experience to make that 'translation' or know what/where to make the fixes.

I do like the idea of a wiki or sth like that. ...

There is a wiki:

http://wiki.debian.org/FrontPage

There is a LOT of great information on it. Unfortunately, there is a LOT of old info too. I am in the habit of browsing it using the "RecentChanges" option:

http://wiki.debian.org/RecentChanges

Even though I was aware of that site, I have hardly looked at it. First try wasn't too impressive (http://wiki.debian.org/LDAP) since it only contains links, but I'll keep a look out.

The single most important things I was taught by those who mentored me was HOW to find answers myself.

I agree completely.

Same here

[Vorian Grey]

I think the current system works great. You post your question, get three or four half-hearted responses, one RTFM, and one really overly enthusiastic person who unfortunately knows a great deal less about the problem then you already do, forcing you to figure it all out by yourself and consequently learn the most you possibly could about your computer.

Don't forget the gratuitous insults, usually misspelled.

Why would anyone want to change a system like that?

[Absent Minded]

Hi All,
While I think a mentor program might be a good idea I dont know as this forum is a good spot for it. Mentoring is something that can be very involved and time intensive. I do it some in my own way with people I know when it comes to linux in general. That said, I don't know as I would be up to helping mentor someone long distance. Plus, there are areas that I know and areas that I don't. I dont know as I would meet the cryteria of a mentor just because I am willing to try here and there. I think our system here is working prety good. Every one can get help as long as they are willing to put forth a little effort of their own.

Well, just my 2 bits worth...
Michael

[dannybuntu]

IMHO, the best way to test an idea is to put that idea to practical use. Write the software or whatever. Implement it somewhere if not here.

Like, people would say "a telephone without wires, why that is absolutely preposterous."

Or "Light coming from a hollow glass? Absolutely absurd!"

Ultimately, you never really know what people would like until it is out there. For example, Micro$oft made Zune, which in their own collective Microsoft heads they thought it would rock. But it didn't.

There are so many possibilities to explore out there that need just that: exploration. Contemplation usually doesn't lead to something. Take it from me. I contemplate a lot.

[Vorian Grey]

I've wondered if Debian needs a Newbie Forum, where newcomers can have a place where they feel comfortable asking dumb questions and not have to worry about getting pinned to the wall for it. A place where older, wiser Debian users guide the newcomers.

I learned rather quickly not to ask questions on forums. I learned to search and find my own answers. However, it would have been helpful to me when I first started using Linux if I had a place to go where I would have felt comfortable enough asking for help. Everyone needs help every once in a while. At least now I know the proper questions to ask. Someone starting out doesn't even know that.

Sometimes, having the support of your fellow noobs can be a powerful thing, even if no one has an answer.

Also, since this forum is more for advanced users I don't think this is the place to do it.