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Reasons for (and against) using Debian

Here you can discuss every aspect of Debian. Note: not for support requests!
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dawgie
Posts: 430
Joined: 2004-06-16 21:30
Location: New Hampshire USA

#21 Post by dawgie »

Lavene wrote:
And learning the basic stuff is important. It's important that they learn that Linux is not Windows. If they don't learn that they will soon try to install an 'install.exe' file and don't understand why it doesen't work. And why can't they play their favorite shockwave game anymore? Why can't anyone open the 'word' files they sent them?

My youngest kid has built up a very nice part-time business fixing people's Windows problems. Most of the calls are for installing software. A typical situation is:
The customer buys a software program (at Staple, Walmart or BestBuy). After they purchase it (before they open the box) they call my son to set up an appointment for him to come to their house and install the new software. These people are happy paying $25-$50 to have someone install software for them.

coolen
Posts: 15
Joined: 2006-06-17 13:55

#22 Post by coolen »

I think I just found my calling in life...
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes. Then you're a mile away, and you have his shoes.

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ethyrdude
Posts: 221
Joined: 2006-03-18 01:30
Location: Georgina, Ontario, Canada

#23 Post by ethyrdude »

I too get lots of calls from people who end up with tons of spyware on their computer and usually one or two viruses, and they are totally lost as what to do about it. Usually they don't have any anti-virus soft ware because "we don't download anything from the internet, we only use it for reading our email." and opening infected attachments! They still believe that microsoft will email them important patches, instead of using the automatic update feature which is risky enough.

Once I get rid of all the crap on their hard drives I usually install AVG free, spybot or what ever is free and popular and seems to work, I used to install a pop up blocker, now I just install firefox and thunderbird which usually requires me to import all their data from Outlook Express. And usually I end up getting their computers back in three to six months because they went to a website that offered to optimize their browser...

And people honestly believe it's easier to run Windows than Linux? Just let's see them handle a complete hive breakdown as XP has a nasty habit of doing on occassion. Safe mode is only an expression.

innodonni
Posts: 13
Joined: 2006-08-16 21:12

#24 Post by innodonni »

I think there is a strong requirement nowadays to differentiate between users - I see many posts here describing people of very different ability levels in the same discussion.
I can speak from experience about the difference between users who have an excel spreadsheet budget, deadlines, and a belief that free software cannot fulfil their requirements, and users who are willing for you to set up their computer, alternatives to programs they use on Windows, and a small set of tasks they perform regularly - primarily web-browsing, e-mail, scanning/printing, the occasional DVD, perhaps someone else wanting to show them some photos off of a camera. Once you set it up, they have no more problems than they had on Windows.
There are a few other types of users. One is someone with really old hardware which they hope can run *an* operating system, and don't want to throw it away until proved wrong! Others have been mentioned already - ones who delve in excitedly and spam the forums with questions about their winmodem, why they only have 800x600, why their printouts are all so big and cut off, why their game doesn't play sound while they are playing music, why they can't play DVDs. And a similar one is one who wants to install Linux, but finds that the installer won't work at all.
The last is the Windows user which makes up many of those here - they know how Windows works, fix Windows for people, have hardware problems on Windows and they are sick of having to buy expensive upgrades to fix these problems. They are quite capable of setting up any Linux distribution out there, it's just a matter of taking the time to do it.
There is a need to find out the requirements of individuals, and to give them real information about whether Linux is right for them or not. As has been said before, the crux of the issue is that Linux is a whole different world to Windows, and no matter what any corporate advertising says, there is a fair amount of compromise to make when switching to Linux. The biggest compromises are that of hardware support and multimedia/document format support. While Linux isn't the only thing out there, there will always be people trying to plug their cameras in, sending people .exes and .wmvs with drm. There will always be websites with Shockwave, Internet radio using real media format. When using Linux one has to realise that not all of these things matter as much as being able to use their computer without fear of software licensing, viruses, the support contract running out, having to buy the next version of Office and Windows so you can read the documents people give you, play the videos people give you and not have your drivers crash your computer because they were optimised for the latest version.
Once the user has enough time on their hands, a willingness to learn, the knowledge that their hardware may not be automatically detected (this is a bit of a myth, since on Windows, you have to go the manufacturers website to get them, whereas on Linux they come pre-installed), the user can then start installing Linux.
You can't just say "Anything is possible on Linux", because, though true, this doesn't tell them that there is work involved. No Linux distribution out there will tell you that Linux has an old version of Flash, or it doesn't support all printers or sound cards in the installation notes. This sort of thing should be plain to see before people try Linux, but not in a negative light. The main reason for this sort of thing is that software and hardware companies do not support Linux due to it's limited userbase. But this is only due to the problem that Windows has brainwashed people into thinking that Windows is the computer. I disagree with those that say the goal isn't Linux on every computer, because I think you know it is, but don't think it's feasable. The point I am making is that of the freeness of Linux, the benefits of the open source method of development, and the evil that is the closed proprietary model that forces vendor lock-in. People need to be made aware that there is a growing number of people that won't stand for it. They want control over their computers, and don't want to give that away to big business and the government.

PingFloyd
Posts: 24
Joined: 2006-10-05 23:17

#25 Post by PingFloyd »

In my case, Debian was the first Linux distro I started with. I tried some other distros out over the course of time, but I always kept coming back to Debian.

Sometimes Debian can be a bit perplexing (especially when the need arises to handle things in a manual nuts and bolts fashion), but it's worth it in the long run. Eventually you end up with a Linux system that is configured just how you like (to not have anything that personally annoys you, but works and behave in a manner that you like) that is very maintainable and manageable.

Of course it's less user friendly than some of the other distros, but user friendliness is over-rated. Someone running a more user-friendly distro won't necessarily be more prepared for Debian. About all it will do is possibly give them some familiarity with operating some Linux based GUIs (wms and DEs). Sooner or later a person just has to dive into something and either sink or swim. They either have the motivation to push onward through the rough spots or they give up. I think if someone doesn't have this sort of determination, then they probably will never come to like Debian. I am also glad that Debian doesn't try to cater to it either. Otherwise it would end up being mediocre and losing some of what makes it good.

Debian does make some amenities toward user-friendliness though, but it doesn't go overboard about it either. It does just enough to not lose it's bigger strengths in the process. I think the real way to address new users isn't to conform a distro around newness, but instead to better document Debian specific things.

There is lots of documentation for Debian, but alot of it is very terse (which is good once you relate to the subject matter) and some of it has alot poor grammar that ends up making things very ambiguous (That isn't to knock the writers of the docs since we're fortunate to have them volunteer for such tasks. It's more to point out where things could work out better. I'm no angel either when it comes to grammar and typos etc. Perhaps there just needs to be a better system in place to help refine the docs more.). One thing I've found with Debian is that you really just skim the documentation and learn more from trial and error. After your expirements, triumphs, and mistakes the docs start making sense. What is a needed is some documents that are good prior to being able to relate. Debian is pretty good about reference oriented docs, but it would probably go a long way for introducing more users if there were more "primer" oriented one included, IMHO.

The reason I think documentation is the route to go for addressing new users is that it's really the only true solution. One could "dumb" down a system, but then it ends up being ultimately more limiting. Whereas if one provides the resources to have an easier time learning an advanced system, the user and the platform both are better off in the long run. It's really a matter of helping new users gain the needed knowledge and skills to be able to make good use of a well designed system. Like the old saying goes, "you give a man a fish and he has food for a day. You teach him to fish and he has food for life".

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ghostdawg
Posts: 1082
Joined: 2006-08-29 03:39
Location: STLMO

#26 Post by ghostdawg »

When I first started using Linux was around '98 or '99, I had been using MS DOS-Win98. I used to read alot about computers & software alot also mags in those days, and I started seeing alot about a new OS on the internet, Linux.

So in '98 I had a P133mhz and setup a dual boot with Win98 & Caldera's Linux and an early version of KDE. After that I started to build me another computer and wanted to try a different distro. I tried an early version of Redhat 4 with Gnome and fell in love with gnome. Then I went with Mandrake 8 with KDE for awhile.

As new versions of distros came out over time, I begin having problems with new versions of Mandrake would want to take over the whole hard drive, so I wouldn't use it. All along, I had been hearing how hard Debian & Slackware may be for some people. As I tried alot of different distros, most I didn't really like, so I finally started using Debian & Slackware. As it turns out, when alot of other distros wouldn't install correctly or have some type of issue with software/network etc, I kept going back to Debian & Slackware.

In my opinion, when all else fell, I could always install Debian & Slackware without no real issues. Been using debian every since as my main OS for that fact it had apt-get, one of the easiest package management around.

Thnx.

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