Package Management in Debian

Here you can discuss every aspect of Debian. Note: not for support requests!

Which one do you like more?

dpkg
1
1%
APT
28
31%
aptitude
41
46%
synaptic
16
18%
tasksel
0
No votes
dselect
2
2%
wajig
0
No votes
OTHER...
1
1%
 
Total votes : 89

Package Management in Debian

Postby AMLJ » 2010-09-07 21:01

OK, I really wanted to let everyone know about this, and I thought it's not good to discuss this in other threads. So I made this one.
The main thing I'd like to discuss here, is usage of aptitude and apt-get, though discussion of all package managers are welcome.

Many of you might still disagree with me... After things I wrote. So, again I'd like to share something from the official Debian documentation with you:

The Debian GNU/Linux FAQ: Chapter 8 - The Debian Package Management Tools wrote:aptitude provides the functionality of dselect and apt-get, as well as many additional features not found in either program:

*

aptitude offers easy access to all versions of a package.

*

aptitude makes it easy to keep track of obsolete software by listing it under "Obsolete and Locally Created Packages".

*

aptitude includes a fairly powerful system for searching particular packages and limiting the package display. Users familiar with mutt will pick up quickly, as mutt was the inspiration for the expression syntax.

*

aptitude can be used to install the predefined tasks available. For more information see tasksel, Section 8.1.5.

*

aptitude in full screen mode has su functionality embedded and can be run by a normal user. It will call su (and ask for the root password, if any) when you really need administrative privileges





So, I'd like everyone to know something:this
I'm not trying to be disrespectful at all, and in fact, I'm trying to respect the users of all package managers. I'm trying to tell them that I think the better tool is aptitude, and providing good reasons for them to use aptitude instead of apt-get. If anyone doesn't like aptitude, I'd be really happy to know the reason. But again I remind everyone, I am not being rude or disrespectful, therefor, I'm asking others to be the same. Respect all opinions and points of view, please.

And this thread was actually made to be helpful at last, so please provide everyone with your reasons, like I did.
Also, I recommend you read others' reasons before you vote, it might change your mind.

Thanks in advance guys! :)
AMLJ**0-1-47
User avatar
AMLJ
 
Posts: 973
Joined: 2009-03-18 07:40
Location: Mierlo, Netherlands

Re: Package Management in Debian

Postby craigevil » 2010-09-07 21:17

I use apt-get simply because it is what I started with when I began using Debian years ago. I do use aptitude to clean up the odd thing that apt-get might leave behind, aptitude purge ~c.

Plus I had a bad experience with aptitude way back when I had a kdelib on hold.

Apt-get auto-held all of the packages that relied on the held package. While aptitude wanted to remove most of kde.

apt-get still does a few things aptitude doesn't and apt-get has had autoremove since 0.7 so it handles depends just as well as aptitude.

See Aptitude - Debian Wiki http://wiki.debian.org/Aptitude for a comparison between aptitude and apt-get commands.
Also see http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/refer ... operations

There is no real difference between apt-get and aptitude, and no reason to choose one over the other. Other than the fact that aptitude is the recommended tool.

Although the aptitude command comes with rich features such as its enhanced package resolver, this complexity has caused (or may still causes) some regressions such as Bug #411123, Bug #514930, and Bug #570377. In case of doubt, please use the apt-get and apt-cache commands over the aptitude command.

The Debian GNU/Linux FAQ - Basics of the Debian package management system
http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debia ... cs.en.html

The Debian GNU/Linux FAQ - The Debian package management tools
http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debia ... ls.en.html

I also use Synaptic quite frequently. And yes you can update kde/gnome/Xorg using Synaptic without any problems. I also use gdebi for the odd .deb that I download.
Debian Sid KDE Kernel 3.17 Thinkpad R40 Intel M 1.3 CPU 2GB RAM Radeon Mobility 7500
Debian - "If you can't apt-get something, it isn't useful or doesn't exist"
Debian upgrade script smxi | sysinfo script inxi
User avatar
craigevil
 
Posts: 5192
Joined: 2006-09-17 03:17
Location: Oz

Re: Package Management in Debian

Postby MeanDean » 2010-09-07 21:22

Let me share something with you....

http://www.debian.org/doc/FAQ/ch-pkgtools.en.html
Note that apt-get now installs recommended packages as default and is the preferred program for package management from console to perform system installation and major system upgrades for its robustness.



something else interesting...
try removing aptitude from your system...does apt get removed
now try removing apt from your system....does aptitude get removed


I personally use both apt-get and aptitude depending on what I want to achieve.
User avatar
MeanDean
 
Posts: 3953
Joined: 2007-09-01 01:14

Re: Package Management in Debian

Postby AMLJ » 2010-09-07 21:41

craigevil wrote:There is no real difference between apt-get and aptitude, and no reason to choose one over the other. Other than the fact that aptitude is the recommended tool.


I know, that's why I asked you to explain. But when you vote, I'm actually asking the one you like to use, I mean the one you use more frequently and think is more powerful.
Thanks for your answer! :D :mrgreen:

MeanDean wrote:something else interesting...
try removing aptitude from your system...does apt get removed
now try removing apt from your system....does aptitude get removed


I know, aptitude is just a front-end, but I think is more powerful. But that's right, and I agree, apt is the original thing...
Thanks for your answer, by the way! :) :mrgreen:
AMLJ**0-1-47
User avatar
AMLJ
 
Posts: 973
Joined: 2009-03-18 07:40
Location: Mierlo, Netherlands

Re: Package Management in Debian

Postby TobiSGD » 2010-09-07 21:43

Like craigevil I began with apt-get, back in my Ubuntu days. Now I am used to it and type it automatically when installing or upgrading. Also I never had use for extra features that aptitude may have, and I never had any problems using apt-get. So I don't care about aptitude, even if it may be more powerful, but it's only my opinion.
User avatar
TobiSGD
 
Posts: 859
Joined: 2010-05-08 22:27
Location: Hannover, Germany

Re: Package Management in Debian

Postby milomak » 2010-09-07 22:22

@MeanDean what does that mean with respect to the two?
iMac - MacOS and Windows 10 (Bootcamp)/ Debian Sid (External SSD)
Laptop (64-bit) - Debian Sid, Win10,
Kodi Box - Debian Sid
milomak
 
Posts: 1767
Joined: 2009-06-09 22:20

Re: Package Management in Debian

Postby Telemachus » 2010-09-07 22:25

MeanDean wrote:Let me share something with you....

http://www.debian.org/doc/FAQ/ch-pkgtools.en.html
Note that apt-get now installs recommended packages as default and is the preferred program for package management from console to perform system installation and major system upgrades for its robustness.


****** moronic (not you, the website).

More detail: the bit you quote is from section 8.1.2 (title APT). Seems quite clear.

In the very next section, 8.1.3 (title aptitude), we find this:

Note that aptitude is the preferred program for daily package management from console.


I admit: there is no strict inconsistency. The advice is to use apt-get for installation and major system upgrades, due to its "robustness", but to use aptitude for "daily package management."

Sounds great. Except, except, except.

Except that the last time I checked, aptitude was actually used during installation. How do I know this? Do an installation and then check the log at /var/log/aptitude. It lists all the packages you just installed. So, apparently the Debian installer team didn't read the Debian website - or doesn't follow its guidelines.

Except that nobody has made clear in what way aptitude is not robust.

Except that nobody has made clear why - if apt-get is so darned robust - I wouldn't want to use it "daily." Is it only robust on alternative days?

Except that I seem to recall that they don't always respect each other's holds (that may no longer be true).

Except that if I get into the habit of using aptitude daily, I'm not going to remember to use apt-get when I'm doing a "major system upgrade" - I'm just going to use aptitude anyhow (or vice-versa). After a while, your fingers just get used to typing one or the other.
"We have not been faced with the need to satisfy someone else's requirements, and for this freedom we are grateful."
Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson, The UNIX Time-Sharing System
User avatar
Telemachus
 
Posts: 4677
Joined: 2006-12-25 15:53

Re: Package Management in Debian

Postby mzilikazi » 2010-09-07 22:28

apt-get here as well for the same reasons - I've always used it. Personally I dislike the aptitude interface very much so that's not going to persuade me to change. Besides, all of my aliases are for apt-get.

Tried wajig a few times and while I like the idea the implementation wasn't quite what I wanted.
Debian Sid Laptops:
AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual-Core Processor TK-55 / 1.5G
Intel(R) Pentium(R) Dual CPU T2390 @ 1.86GHz / 3G
User avatar
mzilikazi
Forum Ninja
 
Posts: 3321
Joined: 2004-09-16 02:14
Location: Colorado Springs, CO

Re: Package Management in Debian

Postby Telemachus » 2010-09-07 22:31

Oh, I use aptitude exclusively. I got into the habit on Ubuntu - long ago when apt-get didn't autoremove - and I never switched.
"We have not been faced with the need to satisfy someone else's requirements, and for this freedom we are grateful."
Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson, The UNIX Time-Sharing System
User avatar
Telemachus
 
Posts: 4677
Joined: 2006-12-25 15:53

Re: Package Management in Debian

Postby milomak » 2010-09-07 22:32

Except that nobody has made clear in what way aptitude is not robust.

Except that nobody has made clear why - if apt-get is so darned robust - I wouldn't want to use it "daily." Is it only robust on alternative days?

Except that I seem to recall that they don't always respect each other's holds (that may no longer be true).

Except that if I get into the habit of using aptitude daily, I'm not going to remember to use apt-get when I'm doing a "major system upgrade" - I'm just going to use aptitude anyhow (or vice-versa). After a while, your fingers just get used to typing one or the other.


Thank you Telemachus
iMac - MacOS and Windows 10 (Bootcamp)/ Debian Sid (External SSD)
Laptop (64-bit) - Debian Sid, Win10,
Kodi Box - Debian Sid
milomak
 
Posts: 1767
Joined: 2009-06-09 22:20

Re: Package Management in Debian

Postby Telemachus » 2010-09-07 22:34

milomak wrote:Thank you Telemachus

Yup. If it wasn't clear, to answer your question above, the website seems to be making a very lawyerly distinction between apt-get being best for installs and big upgrades and aptitude being best for daily use. Seems silly to me, but what do I know.
"We have not been faced with the need to satisfy someone else's requirements, and for this freedom we are grateful."
Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson, The UNIX Time-Sharing System
User avatar
Telemachus
 
Posts: 4677
Joined: 2006-12-25 15:53

Re: Package Management in Debian

Postby milomak » 2010-09-07 22:35

mzilikazi wrote:apt-get here as well for the same reasons - I've always used it. Personally I dislike the aptitude interface very much so that's not going to persuade me to change. Besides, all of my aliases are for apt-get.

Tried wajig a few times and while I like the idea the implementation wasn't quite what I wanted.


is the aptitude command line much different from apt-get? as far as i am aware the only time you see the interface is if you just type aptitude. seems strange to hate an app just for that.

the being used to it i can understand.
iMac - MacOS and Windows 10 (Bootcamp)/ Debian Sid (External SSD)
Laptop (64-bit) - Debian Sid, Win10,
Kodi Box - Debian Sid
milomak
 
Posts: 1767
Joined: 2009-06-09 22:20

Re: Package Management in Debian

Postby Absent Minded » 2010-09-07 22:51

I am not really sure what I can offer here except my opinion and conclusions drawn from my experiances. However I have been asked if I would comment so here is my 2 bits for what ever they are worth.

Both apt-get and aptitude are great tools. I am grateful not to have to use dselect still. I make use of both aptitude and apt-get. It has been my experiance that aptitude seems to handle dependancy substatution better than apt-get. So to that end I tend to use aptitude more often than apt-get. I still use apt-get for simple things like updating the package list or installing programs that are "the norm" in Debian. However on some of my systems I make use of unstandard things in Debian like postfix instead of exium. Apt-get simply doesn't know how to handle that it seems where as aptitude will eventually give me a solution that will work with what ever weired package I have decided I want to use. For many day to day things apt-get is just fine for me but it really isn't much differnt than typing aptitude --whatever so I often just type aptitude instead since it has been a bit more reliable for me. I do tend to recomend aptitude as it gives options of substution and one can pick and choose from them as they like. However, if someone is just going to automatically pick the first option given, then why not just use apt-get as it does that automatically anyway. Just as a note, I make use of dpkg and Synaptic as well. Each has their own benifit to me and I make use of them accordingly.
Serving the community the best way I can.
Spreading the tradition of Community Spirit.
Please read some Basic Forum Philosophy
Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach him how to fish, he eats for life.
Updated Nov. 19, 2012
User avatar
Absent Minded
 
Posts: 3757
Joined: 2006-07-09 08:50
Location: Washington State U.S.A.

Re: Package Management in Debian

Postby MeanDean » 2010-09-07 23:01

Telemachus wrote:****** moronic (not you, the website).


been married over twenty years so no to the first part....although sometimes the last part....

I am trying to inject some zeal and fervor into the discussion but I really am not feeling it. That was why I quoted the other part. Anymore I could care less which is preferred, recommended, and suggested. In fact, I sort of delight in taking the ass backward approach sometimes or the hard route just for the challenge or the experience. Anyway...

I think it was discussed on a mailing list about apts 'robustness' during the past etch to lenny upgrades whereas aptitude did not do something just right. So it was suggested that apt be the recommended package manager and someone elses two cents was that it be the recommended package manager for upgrades. Or some such nonsense.

Like I said, I use both quite often, although with autoremove option of apt-get I probably use it more nowadays. I still rely on aptitude purge ~c though.

But apti tab is a bit easier than apt-g tab

I do like the -R switch as opposed to the --no-install-recommends but I usually have apt configured to not install recommends by default so not as important.

I think I prefer the brain exercise of playing with both and staying familiar with both in order to not be dependant on any one thing so both it is for me.

I never used the aptitude tui and do not plan to do so. I have used aptitude-gtk just to play with it but have no plans to use it. I dont use synaptic either unless I am helping someone with it. I used to use synaptic occasionally to place a hold or to browse packages by origin but anymore I do not even use it for that.

I also noticed that aptitude seems to use more resources. Yes, I know I am obsessed with resource usage.

I dont really use dpkg anymore but prefer to use the gdebi command.

oddly enough our two cats look nearly identical to dburrows two cats so he gets a brownie point for that
User avatar
MeanDean
 
Posts: 3953
Joined: 2007-09-01 01:14

Re: Package Management in Debian

Postby milomak » 2010-09-07 23:19

ok it seems much of a muchness. i like to experiment so will play around
iMac - MacOS and Windows 10 (Bootcamp)/ Debian Sid (External SSD)
Laptop (64-bit) - Debian Sid, Win10,
Kodi Box - Debian Sid
milomak
 
Posts: 1767
Joined: 2009-06-09 22:20

Next

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests

fashionable