gnome-core now comes with epiphany & evolution

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Re: gnome-core now comes with epiphany & evolution

Postby emariz » 2010-12-10 17:24

secipolla wrote:I'll check this aptitude graphic mode to start with (up to now I'd only used aptitude to downgrade packages).

Regarding the gnome-core move, IDK if a new package like the former gnome-core will be created but as it is now, gnome-desktop-environment is more of a gnome-extras as it doesn't add that much.

Once you get used to the graphic mode menu and navigation, you'll see that you can do anything to the dependency chain with a pair of clicks (1).
I agree with you in that the current gnome-core makes gnome-desktop-environment way less useful.
1. viewtopic.php?p=320585#p320585

canci wrote:There are still ways though to have a much lighter Gnome, and even a somewhat lighter KDE for that matter.
And in Debian most of us build our systems individually, right?

gnome-shell will never be default in Debian, as it requires mutter, which requires working 3D drivers.

The problem is not whether one build her system manually but that a system built from several pieces is more difficult to administrate than one built from a few ones. Meta-packages facilitate installation and administration.
I think that Gnome Shell could easily be the default in systems with Intel video drivers, which are open-source and provide 3D features.
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Re: gnome-core now comes with epiphany & evolution

Postby canci » 2010-12-10 17:34

emariz wrote:The problem is not whether one build her system manually but that a system built from several pieces is more difficult to administrate than one built from a few ones. Meta-packages facilitate installation and administration.

Not really. All packages, once they are updated, come as an update to you. I didn't mean for you to compile Gnome. As for deleting packages automatically, just make a list of them and put them in a file, so you'll know what you installed later. If you install via Synaptic, there is a history of installed packages. There is also one on pure apt-get / aptitude, I just never used it.

emariz wrote:I think that Gnome Shell could easily be the default in systems with Intel video drivers, which are open-source and provide 3D features.

There will probably be a configure script which checks whether you have 3D and ask you whether you want gnome-shell or classic gnome.
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Re: gnome-core now comes with epiphany & evolution

Postby emariz » 2010-12-10 18:36

canci wrote:Not really. All packages, once they are updated, come as an update to you. I didn't mean for you to compile Gnome. As for deleting packages automatically, just make a list of them and put them in a file, so you'll know what you installed later. If you install via Synaptic, there is a history of installed packages. There is also one on pure apt-get / aptitude, I just never used it.

Sure, the packages will be updated, regardless of the existence of a meta-package (or a more general package), but because of the modularity of GNU/Linux, new features will most likely be added to a meta-package (or a more general package) than to individual packages. And there will always be new features.

For example, a couple of years ago, Gnome Baker was the preferred burning utility in Gnome, but it has since been replaced by the, supposedly, feature rich and modern Brasero. One can install and use Gnome Baker, but it is no longer developed and relies on technology that is now considered obsolete. The changes were applied to the general Gnome packages, but one wouldn't notice them if she built her system from individual pieces.
Such an example is what I meant by "system administration".

For those interested, here's the discussion (1) that led to the changes in gnome-core. The first installation CD needed a desktop environment, the former gnome-desktop-environment meta-package was too big and gnome-core paid the price.
I'll file a bug against gnome-core this weekend, because they should have created a new meta-package for the installation instead of affecting all systems built from gnome-core.
Another bug report will address the absence of Network Manager. It is an application way more important than a screen saver, a mail client or a disk utility.
1. http://lists.debian.org/debian-desktop/ ... 00010.html
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Re: gnome-core now comes with epiphany & evolution

Postby canci » 2010-12-10 19:09

emariz wrote:new features will most likely be added to a meta-package (or a more general package) than to individual packages. And there will always be new features.


There are no programmes inside a meta package, only a list of dependencies and maybe some config files. You could remove gnome-core now and you'd still retain all its dependencies if you didn't tell the package manager to remove the dependencies as well.
Please read up on what meta packages are:

http://bredsaal.dk/a-quick-guide-to-debian-metapackages

emariz wrote:For example, a couple of years ago, Gnome Baker was the preferred burning utility in Gnome, but it has since been replaced by the, supposedly, feature rich and modern Brasero. One can install and use Gnome Baker, but it is no longer developed and relies on technology that is now considered obsolete. The changes were applied to the general Gnome packages, but one wouldn't notice them if she built her system from individual pieces.
Such an example is what I meant by "system administration".


Yes, and a considerable amount of system administration will always be required.
There is a great chance that a consensus on the default applications will not be to
your liking. Filing a bug report could start a discussion on that, but if a majority thinks
evolution should be a default app, or that gnome-baker should go, then this will be the
case. gnome-baker was also abandoned upstream. It is open source though, so you could, with others who like it, still maintain it, or fork it, or whatever.

Pretending that a meta package keeps features from you is just a bit lame, as there are
many ways to find out about changes in Gnome, whether upstream or in Debian. It is
not a secret. Debian will probably never been that automated as to cater to every
individual need. You know what you like and you install that. Some people here already
gave alternatives as to how to install a less bloated Gnome.
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Re: gnome-core now comes with epiphany & evolution

Postby emariz » 2010-12-10 20:55

canci wrote:There are no programmes inside a meta package, only a list of dependencies and maybe some config files.

That's precisely the reason why it is easier to provide more features through a meta-package (or a general package) than through an individual package.
About a year ago, it was decided that gnome-core should cover power management features and thus depend on gnome-power-manager. How are these features remotely related to the other components of the meta-package? Both of us knew what to install and didn't care about the change, but we don't represent the average user. And that was just one new feature within a very small meta-package, imagine the difference that such changes represent within meta-packages that define complete desktop environments. Dependencies, recommendations, conflicts, equivalences... They all have a purpose, you know?

There are no meta-packages installed on my system, but I'm aware of their benefits. A common user enjoys (and suffers) the changes made to the meta-packages that cover her needs. If she didn't use meta-packages or general packages, she'd miss features targeted precisely at users like her.
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Re: gnome-core now comes with epiphany & evolution

Postby canci » 2010-12-10 20:57

emariz wrote:
canci wrote:There are no programmes inside a meta package, only a list of dependencies and maybe some config files.

And that's precisely the reason why it is easier to provide more features through a meta-package (or a general package) than through an individual package.
About a year ago, it was decided that gnome-core should cover power management features and thus depend on gnome-power-manager. How are these features remotely related to the other components of the meta-package? Both of us knew what to install and didn't care about the change, but we don't represent the average user.
And that was just one new feature within a very small meta-package, imagine the difference that such changes represent within meta-packages that define complete desktop environments. Dependencies, recommendations, conflicts, equivalences... They all have a purpose, you know?

There are no meta-packages installed on my system, but I'm aware of their benefits. A common user enjoys (and suffers) the changes made to the meta-packages that cover her needs. If she didn't use meta-packages or general packages, she'd miss features targeted precisely at users like her.

The benefit is not lost. It is just amended by Evolution. You can purge Evolution and still have the same benefit if you were relying on meta packages.
Still, even with installing gnome-core, you are still getting a much lighter Gnome than with e.g. Ubuntu or openSUSE.
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Re: gnome-core now comes with epiphany & evolution

Postby canci » 2010-12-10 20:59

Also, yeah, the good thing about Debian is that it forces you in some way or another to take care of
your system yourself. I find it a good thing. For those who don't, there is Linux Mint, Ubuntu or
openSUSE.
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Re: gnome-core now comes with epiphany & evolution

Postby ManilaTux » 2010-12-19 12:38

I installed my GNOME system using gnome-session which I found to be even more minimal compared to gnome-core.
I use Debian, therefore I am.
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Re: gnome-core now comes with epiphany & evolution

Postby gonzalocasas » 2010-12-19 19:36

Damn, this change breaks a gazillion of tutorials and HOWTOs out there that show how to install a minimal gnome.

Now, for systems that are already installed, and got the massive package list for update the other way, what's the best way to go, that will work long-term? On #607266, it was recommended to do:
aptitude unmarkauto ~R^gnome-core$
aptitude remove gnome-core


Is this a good approach?

Thx
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