The Decline of this Forum

[RitaSkeeter]

I add my voice to those who think this forum has gone to $#!t of late. Even in the few months I've been here, it seems like it's gone way down hill. Lazy a$$e$ who won't bother to do a simple search before posting, folks who clearly feel "entitled" to all the free tech support they can consume, and a seemingly incessant parade of trolls (probably a handful of actual folks, who register new accounts just so that they can keep stirring the pot)...

I bet a dollar that 99% of the noise is one person with 100 different handles.

I am 95% sure you are right on the money.....


@Cynwulf on the other forum...

I think I can predict who will reply next...

//edit: +1 to me.... Person turns up back in February, seems to have an opinion on everything, but back then was singing from a different hymn-sheet to the one they're using now.

Guilty as charged, I guess, but in my defense, let me add that at that time, the "other forum" didn't exist, so this one was all I had. I was also at the time led to believe by a staff member here that nomko had been permanently banned, and that your one month ban was shortened to one week. When I learned later that apparently I was given inaccurate information, I changed my "hymn-sheet" as you say, based on the new data, as any reasonable person is wont to do. As for opinions, yes, I do have opinions on nearly every topic...doesn't mean I'm always right, and my opinions do change when the facts they are based on change...fair enough?

[renatov]

I am a Psychologist

Curiosidade, do qual estado?

São Paulo, and you?

[Troll]

You don't need to "worship", you're exaggerating. But seriously, if you really don't even care about Open Software Movement and if you just want to point and click, withou knowing what your're doing, just to "use it", I think there are better options than Linux, such as Windows like you said.

I don't use Linux because I can for the open source movement, I use it because like I said, its a better operating system.. and I can point and click using GNOME 2.

Yeah, a little standardization wouldn't be bad. But keep in mind that linux kernel is only a package among many others. GNU is not Linux.

If your getting this technical, then I don't see a point discussing this with you anymore.

I do not see any fragmentation done by Debian

Go into Aptitude, now go and look at Apache version in the repository. Its Debian's modified version of it. There is nothing wrong with the original version. Install the Debian version and then install the official version. Look at the huge inconsistency... or try applying installation documentation of the official version to the Debian one. It won't work.
Thats fragmentation. Now go and have a look at 95% of the application versions in the repository. Total fragmentation!
Modified and distributed versions should be renamed IMO, like Firefox is with Iceweasal.

It seems to me some people are not understanding neither Debian nor Linux. Freedom and choice is something really valid and relevant, if you go the Debian way you will gain this.

No where does it say on kernel.org that Linux is about freedom and choice, thats GNU's philosophy. I think you still can modify your software all you want, but I reckon that modified software then shouldn't be commercially distribute under the same name - which is why BSD does not have a fragmentation problem.
You've also been brainwashed if you really believe you have freedom and choice, because your actually chained to a repository.
Try upgrading Zlib on Debian from the official source. I bet you Debian will brake, because Debian has been compiled against a modified version, meaning future upgrades are impossible. Nice freedom.

If you prefer not to go with an ideology and you are a pragmatist, why don't you use Ubuntu etc or just change to your beloved Windows or Mac

Debian and Linux are almost the same thing - modified Linux systems. The only difference is that they are not fully compatible with each other, due to (unnecessary) modification.

I see here some new people on the board discussing about irrelevant things, what the heck?

This has got to be the most stupid thing I have heard all day. Don't you think the world would be a pretty boring place if we all had the same interests?!

love to see some folks going to the mothership because they understood it is a better way.
There is nothing super about Debian over Ubuntu. They have a close commonality. Infact, Ubuntu has a larger repository, therefore can do more than Debian.

I'm here because the Ubuntu community are politically correct morons that live in a delusional utopia of 'family-friendly'. I can't be myself on thoughs forums, where as on the Debian forum I can express my opinion in full without having a mod ban me because he or she disagrees.

In fact Ubuntu is so highly marketed that the people do not find its way to Debian.

Debian use to be awesome. I started using Linux a bit over a year ago and found Debian 5 before I found Ubuntu. I recently was going to switch to Debian, but it has degenerated from version 5 to 6, so I have stuck with Ubuntu.

Freedom can hurt sometimes, that is something people do not understand, you have to fight for your freedom, that is why I use Debian and I will take the hard route if I have to, just to gain that what Debian can offer me.

As I said above, there is no freedom when you are bound to a repository full of modified software. Debian doesn't offer you anything, it mearly shows you applications and restricts them against you which is against its philosophy. This is not freedom, its ideology.[/quote]

I will also consider one day to buy just free/libre hardware, then any of this driver issues could be solved without tweaking.

The only way to fix it will be with change, and for change their must be driver modification.
I personally would not buy a product which was not working on introduction.

But there are users coming from other OSs too, how to treat them?

Its very hard with all the fragmentation. They think Linux, but then they see "Debian" or "Fedora" on there screen and become confused and run away. I.E fragmentation, hence <1% market share.

It would not be nice to treat them as Ubuntu users.

Treat them as Linux users, as this is what they are.

I find to have a beginners guide is something great for them and yes I will even try to help some people not having the will to read everything

They shouldn't have to read everything. 'User knows everything' is why Linux has failed as a desktop operating system.

Although, I found a very serious kernel bug that may, in the not-so-far-away-future, prevent me from using GNU/Linux, I don't think, I will ever have a valid reason to quit using it.

A bug in Debian's modified kernel is not the end of the world. Build your own Linux system using the official sources.

... the fact that a program is graphical, doesn't necessarily mean, it is better than another program having a text based interface.

True, but graphical programs are almost always easier to use than text base program. GUI's were created for our convenience.

Moreover, there are other programs that don't have an interface and yet they do very important tasks. One of these programs is the kernel itself.

That was a really bad example dude.

I didn't like the way grub-pc was integrated, and decided that a bootloader, should be totally independent of any installation.

Yeah that sucks and make Linux look weak!

your incompetence as a Debian user should not detain you from enjoying your computer.

You seem to have failed understanding the difference between not knowing how, and knowing how but have better things to do.

Why are Windows users retards?

You are the best example

Has the word 'security' mean anything to you?

Unfortunately you failed on that assumption also. It also points out you have not read this thread.

In regards to security. Not everyone gives a crap, some people just want to USE their computer, rather building sand castles around it. Do you really, really think everyone in the world is just like you? LOL please man..

What is going on with this market share nonsense? Debian is yet the most widely used Linux, be it itself or as the base for others.

Which year are you living in dude?!

[Mr James]

1. I see you've already called yourself "Troll" and saved us the trouble of stating the obvious.
2. Debian modifies software for a reason. Debian is all about Stable and Stable's packages do not change versions. Thus you won't be upgrading to the newer upstream version to get a bug or security fix - that's Arch.
3. You're supposed to stick with the repo you've chosen - not upgrade from upstream versions. Debian packages upgrade flawlessly from one to the next.
4. Don't like the distro or the forums? Pack your crap, get the **** out, and leave us in peace.

[Randicus]

I switched to Debian from Ubuntu, so that makes me one of the hated "lazy" people. In truth, when I started using Linux I made a mistake. I tried Debian, Mandriva and Ubuntu. I chose Ubuntu, because at first glance it worked better. That is the reason I stopped using Microsoft. I got tired of cursing Microsoft's poor performing software and decided to try Linux. Switching to Debian after learning a little makes me regret not giving Debian a longer trial originally.

Here is where Troll has a valid point. People want to USE their computers, not read documentation. Unfortunately he takes the argument to an extreme and those who rebut him go to the other extreme. When a person who knows nothing about terminal use installs an OS, even if they are willing to read and learn, still want the system to function. Some Linux systems are so full of bugs that almost nothing works. According to some of the posts, those who are not prepared to read a manual before they can switch on their system should use Microsoft or Macintosh. That extreme opinion is more foolish than the the opinion no knowledge should necessary. Calling people lazy, because they want to read documentation when they have time after their systems are at least basically functioning is ridiculous. I would put myself in this category. I am slowly learning, in great part, due to helpful advice and tips by peole on this forum, but I do not want to read a book before I can install an OS. However, those who have no desire to learn and only want to point and click are lazy.
The bottom line: This argument has degenerated into a battle of extremes. People should neither be turned away if they need help nor allowed to be completely lazy.

As for the decline of forum quality, I have not been here long enough to know. However, the complaint in the original post (and I am paraphrasing) was about stupid and lazy beginners wasting forum space with questions. If asking questions is not the purpose of the forum, what is?

[Troll]

1. I see you've already called yourself "Troll" and saved us the trouble of stating the obvious.

No, its a parody... but I guess your one of those people that deflect difference of option by shouting troll.

2. Debian modifies software for a reason. Debian is all about Stable and Stable's packages do not change versions. Thus you won't be upgrading to the newer upstream version to get a bug or security fix

Then Debian should be contributing the code back to the official version, rather fragmenting the application into a modified version and creating inconsistency amongst the Linux platform.

[Mr James]

I don't want to learn how to drive - I want to use my car. Hope you only kill yourself.
I don't want to learn how to swim - I want to use my pool. I hear drowning is fun.
I don't want to learn Linux - I want to use my PC. You had better have made backups.

Didn't you people have to learn how to use Windows or were you born with that capability. Why would you people expect to drive a car like you would a motorcycle? A learning curve exists in everything.

[Mr James]

2. Debian modifies software for a reason. Debian is all about Stable and Stable's packages do not change versions. Thus you won't be upgrading to the newer upstream version to get a bug or security fix

Then Debian should be contributing the code back to the official version, rather fragmenting the application into a modified version and creating inconsistency amongst the Linux platform.

Who said Debian does not? It is in the social contract. Have a read.

[Troll]

Who said Debian does not? It is in the social contract. Have a read.

You did. See your quote bellow.

Debian is all about Stable and Stable's packages do not change versions. Thus you won't be upgrading to the newer upstream version to get a bug or security fix

First, it does change them. Compare the version of Apache HTTP Server with the corresponding official version, and you will see Debian has totally re-arranged its file structure, along with gutting the config file - making tutorials based on the official version incompatible, and vice versa... and this is just one example of hundreds of fragmented applications amongst Debian, and other distro's... the Debian distribution isn't the only culprit fragmenting the Linux system.
Also, implying that you can only get the stable version through Debian is false, as almost all applications have a stable release available on their website.

[Randicus]

I agree that there are too many distributions "fragmenting" the Linux world. However, it is incorrect to criticise all modifications. Although all Linux systems use the same foundation, they are not the same. Three people can use the same ingredients, but will create three slightly different dishes.
A programme that is general, will not work on some systems. If they were not modified to suit individual systems, they would not run properly. In other words, they would have bugs.

[vbrummond]

First, it does change them.

Learn to read. He said Debian's packages stay the same version not that they do not change them.

Also, implying that you can only get the stable version through Debian is false, as almost all applications have a stable release available on their website.

Which may or may not be compatible with other programs. If you upgrade Amarok 1.4 to 2.0 you need QT4. Just upgrading it in place will not work. You need a rolling release to do that. Your argument of 'no modifications' is bull.

Go back to the shadow!

[Troll]

Randicus,

This is why developers need to drop using the GPL and use a BSD-style license that permits you to modify the software, but not commercially redistribute it using the same name, that way fragmentation does not occur.
The more Linux fragments, the more it dies.. already applications are being targeted at distro's, rather Linux.

Which may or may not be compatible with other programs. If you upgrade Amarok 1.4 to 2.0 you need QT4. Just upgrading it in place will not work.

Yes it will, just install the latest stable version of QT4.
Oh what was that? Its not available in your locked-n-modified repository and if you go and download the official version it will brake your system? Oh yeah nice "freedom" you have there.

a rolling release

Inferior distributor jargon.

Go take it up with the developers of the upstream software.

Don't you mean the developer OF the software?

[vbrummond]

Yes it will, just install the latest stable version of QT4.

Something beyond your ability and understanding so stop making up fake arguments like a sociopath.

Don't you mean the developer OF the software?

Which at times is also the same person that is the Debian maintainer, fool.

[Troll]

Yes it will, just install the latest stable version of QT4.

Something beyond your ability and understanding so stop making up fake arguments like a sociopath.

What are you saying I don't understand? That it will probably BRAKE? Your right, it probably will, which indicates the software is junk, in which you should find better quality software.

[vbrummond]

What are you saying I don't understand? That it will probably break? Your right, it probably will, which indicates the software is junk, in which case you should find better quality software.

[Troll]

What are you saying I don't understand? That it will probably break? Your right, it probably will, which indicates the software is junk, in which case you should find better quality software.

What do you always try and deflect getting put in your place with debate-less technicality observations?
Are you trying to judge my intelligence by minor academic mistakes? English is not my native language, my native language is Greek.. Do you know how to spell those two words in Greek, write them in Greek, or hold a conversation in Greek for that matter? No, you can't. So, in accordance to your logic, this would make you a dumb ass, wouldn't it.

[Randicus]

Being an academic I love debating. But the way to do it is set forth an agrument as simply as possible and backed up with evidence.
Long-winded rants and personal attacks are not debating. If attacking others' character and intelligence is one's only available rebutal, then one does not have a valid argument.

Which brings us back to the original post concerning the decline of the forum. This kind of behaviour definitely discourages many people from participating.

And vbrummond is one of the very helpful people on this forum. Personally attacking him is ridiculous.

[vbrummond]

What do you always try and deflect getting put in your place with debate-less technicality observations?

I am acting the same as you. Annoying is it not?

Are you trying to judge my intelligence by minor academic mistakes?

Nope.

English is not my native language, my native language is Greek..

Don't care.

Do you know how to spell those two words in Greek, write them in Greek, or hold a conversation in Greek for that matter? No, you can't. So, in accordance to your logic, this would make you a dumb ass, wouldn't it.

Logic fail.

[vbrummond]

And vbrummond is one of the very helpful people on this forum. Personally attacking him is ridiculous.

Thank you and you as well. However in this case I am really trying to be a jerk to this guy. If he had any desire to be rational or polite I would not have done so.

[Troll]

Why do Chinese guys always love kissing white guys feet?! lol seriously