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Does Debian changes its default desktop environment?

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MoaTib
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Does Debian changes its default desktop environment?

#1 Post by MoaTib »

Hey

Look at: http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=tas ... ;a=summary at 9 days ago :
"Joey Hess switch default desktop task to xfce"

And here: http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=tas ... .git;a=log
"switch default desktop task to xfce

This ensures that the desktop will fit on CD#1, which gnome currently does not.

There may be other reasons to prefer xfce as the default as well, but that
is a complex and subjective topic. Unfortunatly, Debian does not have a
well-defined procedure for making such choices, though it certianly has
well-defined procedures for reviewing them. So, I've decided to be bold,
and continue the tradition of making an arbitrary desktop selection for
Debian in tasksel.
"

Does Debian will be shipped with Xfce as their default desktop environment?

Source: http://www.muktware.com/4087/debian-whe ... nvironment
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Re: Does Debian changes its default desktop environment?

#2 Post by craigevil »

anonscm.debian.org Git - tasksel/tasksel.git/commit : http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=tas ... 0d9a799a08

tasksel: Default desktop: Gnome→Xfce (was: How to proceed with switching packages on first CDs to xz?) : http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/20 ... 00029.html

Looks that way, although I haven't found an actual announcement.
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harishankar
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Re: Does Debian changes its default desktop environment?

#3 Post by harishankar »

I also think Xfce makes a good default desktop choice.

However, what I like about Debian is that it has no favourites. We get all the choices and all desktops get (theoritically) equal priority.

tr!x0r
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Re: Does Debian changes its default desktop environment?

#4 Post by tr!x0r »

I think it's a very good decision to switch to xfce. I'm using Debian for it's performance on my servers. Most of the time I don't even install a GUI.
On my laptop I'm running a Debian+xfce and Arch+cinnamon. I must say that I'm very happy about both those interfaces.

As harishankar said, we are free to choose our own DE. :-)
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Re: Does Debian changes its default desktop environment?

#5 Post by cynwulf »

He's making the case that gnome does not fit on CD1... and that because of this the default DE should be changed. I'm not sure that's a good enough case to change the default DE.

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Re: Does Debian changes its default desktop environment?

#6 Post by craigevil »

why even bother with a DE on cd1? Why not have the installer ask which de/wm you want installed? Why even bother with a cd? There are very few distros that are distributed on cds, most are on dvds.

Some things a good installer should IMHO ask or do:
1) Choose Language
2) Choose Debian mirror
3) Choose DE/WM
4) Option to Install non-free firmware/drivers
5) Option to Install contrib/non-free packages like Adobe Flash and Oracle Java
6) Option to Install multimedia apps including libdvdcss2, ffmpeg, flac, gstreamer-plugins, lame, vorbis-tools, w32codecs
7) Option to download and install 3rd party apps like Google Chrome and Skype
8) Setup default apps, like editor, browser, mail client
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MoaTib
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Re: Does Debian changes its default desktop environment?

#7 Post by MoaTib »

craigevil wrote:why even bother with a DE on cd1? Why not have the installer ask which de/wm you want installed? Why even bother with a cd? There are very few distros that are distributed on cds, most are on dvds.
Because Debian has always provided a cd1 installing a complete Debian operating system including a desktop environment without the need of an internet connection?
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emariz
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Re: Does Debian changes its default desktop environment?

#8 Post by emariz »

MoaTib wrote:Because Debian has always provided a cd1 installing a complete Debian operating system including a desktop environment without the need of an internet connection
That depends on the definition of "complete" used by the Debian Developers in turn. The CD1 for Squeeze does not include an office suite or Network Manager, for example.
How a casual user could install an essential application like Network Manager without Internet connection is beyond my comprehension.

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Re: Does Debian changes its default desktop environment?

#9 Post by Bulkley »

craigevil wrote:Some things a good installer should IMHO ask or do:
1) Choose Language
2) Choose Debian mirror
3) Choose DE/WM
4) Option to Install non-free firmware/drivers
5) Option to Install contrib/non-free packages like Adobe Flash and Oracle Java
6) Option to Install multimedia apps including libdvdcss2, ffmpeg, flac, gstreamer-plugins, lame, vorbis-tools, w32codecs
7) Option to download and install 3rd party apps like Google Chrome and Skype
8) Setup default apps, like editor, browser, mail client
Agreed. There seem to be countless threads on this forum by users who have just installed Debian and it won't do something basic because they need a non-free hardware package and the installer hasn't even warned about it. Some simple options could eliminate a lot of grief.

tr!x0r
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Re: Does Debian changes its default desktop environment?

#10 Post by tr!x0r »

Bulkley wrote:
craigevil wrote:Some things a good installer should IMHO ask or do:
1) Choose Language
2) Choose Debian mirror
3) Choose DE/WM
4) Option to Install non-free firmware/drivers
5) Option to Install contrib/non-free packages like Adobe Flash and Oracle Java
6) Option to Install multimedia apps including libdvdcss2, ffmpeg, flac, gstreamer-plugins, lame, vorbis-tools, w32codecs
7) Option to download and install 3rd party apps like Google Chrome and Skype
8) Setup default apps, like editor, browser, mail client
Agreed. There seem to be countless threads on this forum by users who have just installed Debian and it won't do something basic because they need a non-free hardware package and the installer hasn't even warned about it. Some simple options could eliminate a lot of grief.
As long as the installer really asks if you want it or not I can agree. But please don't force me to bloat my system with things that I don't want/need.

I do however prefer a very small image that I can carry with me all the time. I don't think it would be a big issue to switch to the DVD format and drop the CD format, as long as the net installer is still provided :-). I do however think that Gnome3 isn't the best solution for Debian. I personally, and many of my friends 2, prefer Debian above others because it's lightweight. I use Debian on all my servers.
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oswaldkelso
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Re: Does Debian changes its default desktop environment?

#11 Post by oswaldkelso »

Debian is the universal operating system.

It doesn't need to just think of us rich folk in the the first world but others less fortunate than us elsewhere. Many folk are running old computers without DVD drives and that are unable to boot from usb, Their internet connections are poor or intermittent and expensive.
The first CD needs to be as universal as possible too. It matters that it is as accessible as possible to as many as possible while still providing a good experience. The recommended hardware requirements of default Gnome and KDE alone make them less suitable as a Debian default in the context of "Debian is the universal operating system".
XFCE is an excellent choice in this regard and have been discussed here before, it's just funny the other DE's bloat has brought this about.
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debianized
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Re: Does Debian changes its default desktop environment?

#12 Post by debianized »

MoaTib wrote: This ensures that the desktop will fit on CD#1, which gnome currently does not.
Which is really strange. I didn't install an optical drive on my last computer. What's the point as long as you can use flash drives?
harishankar wrote:I also think Xfce makes a good default desktop choice.
Although I will never use Xfce, for various reasons, I agree this was a good choice. It's also a message for Gnome.
cynwulf wrote:He's making the case that gnome does not fit on CD1... and that because of this the default DE should be changed. I'm not sure that's a good enough case to change the default DE.
Even if it's not a good enough case (because with flash drives who cares about CD sizes), I feel the decision is a better fit for a 'universal' operating system. If it's universal, it needs to run on anything, including older hardware that would get bogged down by Gnome 3.
craigevil wrote: Some things a good installer should IMHO ask or do:
1) Choose Language
2) Choose Debian mirror
3) Choose DE/WM
4) Option to Install non-free firmware/drivers
5) Option to Install contrib/non-free packages like Adobe Flash and Oracle Java
6) Option to Install multimedia apps including libdvdcss2, ffmpeg, flac, gstreamer-plugins, lame, vorbis-tools, w32codecs
7) Option to download and install 3rd party apps like Google Chrome and Skype
8) Setup default apps, like editor, browser, mail client
Sounds like a netinstall followed by smxi is what you are looking for.
tr!x0r wrote: I do however prefer a very small image that I can carry with me all the time.
Agreed, that's why I think the netinstall is one of the best things about Debian. You get exactly what you want and nothing more. That's why in my case, the default DE is of no consequence. But I still give kudos to the Debian developers for this decision, even though I will never use Xfce. It's the most sane decision they could have made, given the situation.

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Re: Does Debian changes its default desktop environment?

#13 Post by nadir »

Bulkley wrote:
craigevil wrote:Some things a good installer should IMHO ask or do:
1) Choose Language
2) Choose Debian mirror
3) Choose DE/WM
4) Option to Install non-free firmware/drivers
5) Option to Install contrib/non-free packages like Adobe Flash and Oracle Java
6) Option to Install multimedia apps including libdvdcss2, ffmpeg, flac, gstreamer-plugins, lame, vorbis-tools, w32codecs
7) Option to download and install 3rd party apps like Google Chrome and Skype
8) Setup default apps, like editor, browser, mail client
Agreed. There seem to be countless threads on this forum by users who have just installed Debian and it won't do something basic because they need a non-free hardware package and the installer hasn't even warned about it. Some simple options could eliminate a lot of grief.
They could have protected themselves from a lot of grief if they would have read the very first sentence and main purpose of Debian at debian.org
Debian is a free operating system (OS) for your computer.
It is said there, plain and clear, right in front of the eyes (with my resolution it is pretty much all i can read without scrolling, btw).
As far i see: if one doesn't want it, a free operating system, and wants the list from above: i don't think Debian will ever offer that (and i for one am happy for that).
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Tadeas
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Re: Does Debian changes its default desktop environment?

#14 Post by Tadeas »

oswaldkelso wrote:Debian is the universal operating system.

It doesn't need to just think of us rich folk in the the first world but others less fortunate than us elsewhere. Many folk are running old computers without DVD drives and that are unable to boot from usb, Their internet connections are poor or intermittent and expensive.
The first CD needs to be as universal as possible too. It matters that it is as accessible as possible to as many as possible while still providing a good experience. The recommended hardware requirements of default Gnome and KDE alone make them less suitable as a Debian default in the context of "Debian is the universal operating system".
Yeah, only that XFCE has horrible localization issues* so it makes it suitable only for English speaking folks. Truly universal operating system...


* at least for Czech, but I doubt that if the keyboard switching applet doesn't work for one language it will for another.
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Re: Does Debian changes its default desktop environment?

#15 Post by oswaldkelso »

* at least for Czech, but I doubt that if the keyboard switching applet doesn't work for one language it will for another
http://wiki.debian.org/ReleaseGoals/NoRCBugs

Looks like a bug report is in order then :wink:
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Re: Does Debian changes its default desktop environment?

#16 Post by MoaTib »

emariz wrote:
MoaTib wrote:Because Debian has always provided a cd1 installing a complete Debian operating system including a desktop environment without the need of an internet connection
That depends on the definition of "complete" used by the Debian Developers in turn. The CD1 for Squeeze does not include an office suite or Network Manager, for example.
How a casual user could install an essential application like Network Manager without Internet connection is beyond my comprehension.
Windows does not comes with Microsoft Office and I never needed NetworkManager to have a working internet connection. And since Xfce is smaller than GNOME, they can add Wicd on the CD1.
debianized wrote:
MoaTib wrote: This ensures that the desktop will fit on CD#1, which gnome currently does not.
Which is really strange. I didn't install an optical drive on my last computer. What's the point as long as you can use flash drives?
I'm not one of those who will sleep three days in the street to buy the new trendy iCrap, I don't have a cell phone and still use my old good AMD K7 1 GHz (yes the old big slot A CPU :lol: ) with Debian/Xfce.
Tadeas wrote:
oswaldkelso wrote:Debian is the universal operating system.

It doesn't need to just think of us rich folk in the the first world but others less fortunate than us elsewhere. Many folk are running old computers without DVD drives and that are unable to boot from usb, Their internet connections are poor or intermittent and expensive.
The first CD needs to be as universal as possible too. It matters that it is as accessible as possible to as many as possible while still providing a good experience. The recommended hardware requirements of default Gnome and KDE alone make them less suitable as a Debian default in the context of "Debian is the universal operating system".
Yeah, only that XFCE has horrible localization issues* so it makes it suitable only for English speaking folks. Truly universal operating system...


* at least for Czech, but I doubt that if the keyboard switching applet doesn't work for one language it will for another.
It's not a localization issue, it's a keyboard switching panel applet issue. And of course, you reported the bug and/or provided a patch?
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Re: Does Debian changes its default desktop environment?

#17 Post by nadir »

If i am not wrong refracta comes with the keyboad applet, and switching from English to German and vice versa works. I think all others are English speakers (hence they won't be able to confirm nor to deny).
Else i just do setxkbmap de|en.
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Re: Does Debian changes its default desktop environment?

#18 Post by woteb »

At this moment XFCE 4.8 on Wheezy is not a success on my laptops because the thunar/gvfs-backends bug. Still 30 seconds waiting for browsing my files. Yes, it is possible with a workaround in /usr/share/gvfs/mounts/smb-browse.mount, but it remains a bug even when solving this with this workaround. Strange enough XFCE 4.8 in LMDE works very well and not in Debian.
Until this bug resist it's not a good idea for Debian to swich to XFCE.
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Re: Does Debian changes its default desktop environment?

#19 Post by adenukolnis »

I suspect gnome will be as happy about this as well. This way people do not end up with half of the 'gnome experience' instead of the whole thing as the devs intended.

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Re: Does Debian changes its default desktop environment?

#20 Post by nadir »

I had the full gnome-experience more than once.
In the old days that was called bsod.

but i am cheating: it was fedora...
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