About the future of home computing....

[Bulkley]

edbarx: if the threat to internet freedom slightly as serious as i see it, then we should discuss such questions as often as possible. I for one got no idea what to do about it, but being informed won't hurt.

+1. I think the threat to Internet freedom is one of the major threats of our time because it has the potential to eliminate all other freedoms. This threat is all pervasive. Even if you don't use the Internet your friends are busy selling you out and even your car may be doing it.

As Moglen points out, most countries have laws making it illegal to intercept and read other people's snail mail but most governments want to spy on our email and other private Internet communications. For some reason many people don't care and don't want to talk about it. When I try it always goes badly.

[Randicus]

As Moglen points out, most countries have laws making it illegal to intercept and read other people's snail mail but most governments want to spy on our email and other private Internet communications. For some reason many people don't care and don't want to talk about it. When I try it always goes badly.

That is because regular post is tangible; real, while electronic gadgets are perceived as sorcery. Most people believe their e-mail and items in the cloud are somehow magically protected from intrusion. The people who want to see and steal our information must love the ignorant bliss of the masses.

[chrissywissy]

That is because regular post is tangible; real, while electronic gadgets are perceived as sorcery. Most people believe their e-mail and items in the cloud are somehow magically protected from intrusion. The people who want to see and steal our information must love the ignorant bliss of the masses.

+1

I cannot believe those who are happy to store their documents and other files in the cloud. I am even wary of syncing my (Safari, Chrome and Firefox/Iceweasel) bookmarks. I never allow 'remembered' passwords to be synced.

[endived]

This evening, a local TV station (Malta, EU) presented an interview with a university professor holding a doctorate in ICT. He said that the future will bring less powerful machines, the user programs will move to the cloud and users will use/hire programs as they may need them.

Since I use GNU/Linux and I like to have my machine doing the processing locally on my computer, I am inclined to think this will put some drawbacks to whoever like me wants to use a free and open system. Imagine if the grand majority of computer users switch to this model with programs not needing to reside and run on home computers, the price of a system capable of running and holding programs locally would shoot up making it financially difficult to purchase a computer with a capability which currently is available with very accessible prices.

I would like to know what other GNU/Linux users think about this "new" model of doing home computing and whether it will remain possible to have one's programs run on a local machine.

Thanks.

Interesting.

If I look around, or at the people I graduated with in secondary school, most of them have only just discovered the internet since they can connect to it with small devices like smartphones and tablets, that provide them with the exact functionality that they need: consuming information and communicating with other people. Or, play games.

All these years before, they could have done the same with a personal computer, but a lot of people were somewhat reluctant or intimidated by buying an industrial-grade machine as a household device. Not because they were stupid or didn't have the means or anything.
We're talking about people who are not interested in computing in the broad meaning of the word. They don't want to write code, or compile or modify programs, or build a home network or run their own website at home. They just want to be connected and for them buying a personal computer is like buying a truck to buy and transport groceries.

I also see a lot of friends replacing their personal computers by Android or iOS devices because these fit their needs better. They can Facebook and browse the net and that's what they get. If they want more, they'll need to find or buy an app. Or use a cloud service, like for their email. I often think it's a little funny that people buy apps or use free but ad-infested apps to do stuff for which free code is already abundantly available in an OS like GNU/Linux but they don't know it or they think it's scary or complex. I think there will be more and more or these specialized stripped-down devices. Everything that is already available in a computer system today but which is not really core functionality, can be dropped and sold as an 'extension' in the form of an app or a cloud service.

So, that future this gentleman is talking about, is really just around the corner. If it's not there yet.

Not sure what that is going to mean for the traditional PC or 'general purpose' computer. Demand will drop significantly.
I think there will always be a need for them. Clouds need servers and code and kernels to power them and so they will (I think) always remain available as a consumer product. As long as people are willing and searching to run their own computer shop at home, there will be products on the market.

So running your own programs on your own computer with your own OS will not 'go extinct', but I do imagine these computers will also evolve. Clouds are all about scalability, which certainly will have design consequences. We see the arrival of cheap, low-powered mini-computers like the Raspberry Pi and stuff, again: his prediction doesn't come out of the blue here.
I bought a whole set of these things already and I find myself clustering them and wondering whether I could eventually use this kind of tech to replace my clunky, noisy, power-hungry desktop.

[edbarx]

Not sure what that is going to mean for the traditional PC or 'general purpose' computer. Demand will drop significantly.
I think there will always be a need for them. Clouds need servers and code and kernels to power them and so they will (I think) always remain available as a consumer product. As long as people are willing and searching to run their own computer shop at home, there will be products on the market.

So running your own programs on your own computer with your own OS will not 'go extinct', but I do imagine these computers will also evolve.

Interesting...

Demand will drop significantly implies that my preoccupations are justified because the price of computers capable of running programs locally will shoot up. Maybe, some people don't have any financial constraints, however many, do have.

There is also the question of privacy that other posters highlighted. According to the links provided, it is clear that, it does make sense to provide users of the net, with a mechanism by which they can opt out of personal data mining mechanisms. After all, if anyone is at a private place, maybe home or whatever, having a gadget by manufacturer X, doesn't give X the sacrosanct innate right to snoop, even if this snooping is only intended for commercial purposes. The point is to allow end users to make their own decisions and not to treat adults like children.

[nadir]

edbarx: if the threat to internet freedom slightly as serious as i see it, then we should discuss such questions as often as possible. I for one got no idea what to do about it, but being informed won't hurt.

+1. I think the threat to Internet freedom is one of the major threats of our time because it has the potential to eliminate all other freedoms. This threat is all pervasive. Even if you don't use the Internet your friends are busy selling you out and even your car may be doing it.

As Moglen points out, most countries have laws making it illegal to intercept and read other people's snail mail but most governments want to spy on our email and other private Internet communications. For some reason many people don't care and don't want to talk about it. When I try it always goes badly.

Good to hear that. I often feel like paranoid as can be (yes, i am a drama-queen and yes, i do take things too serious -well: dramatic, for the effect. But i am very sure that you are quite reasonable).

When I try it always goes badly.

Oh yes.
I really don't do that often. Really. Sometimes i run into it (I speak of real life). I could speak Chinese, and the misunderstandings couldn't be worse. (probably rather better).
Even in computer forums you will seldom find folks who agree (default answer: "who cares?").


drama queen back:
What they want is an entertainment box ("but i only want to watch a film"), they get that, but also the surveillance in the living room (1984 looks like a dream, compared to that). I doubt we know more than the tip of the iceberg, btw.

i2p is not bad, btw (can be slow, but can be fast too). And be it only for secure email communication.
But then you run into your friends saying: who cares? Fin du siecle.

[dasein]

Imagine if the grand majority of computer users switch to this model...

A substantial plurality already have. And the day when it's a majority is probably foreseeable (if still some ways off).

...the price of a system capable of running and holding programs locally would shoot up...

This conclusion doesn't follow from the premise.

I would like to know...whether it will remain possible to have one's programs run on a local machine.

Oh of course it will. The form factor or the distribution channel(s) may change, perhaps even radically so. But local storage (and therefore local execution) is not going to disappear.

The sky is not falling.

[nadir]

The sky is not falling.

Looking at chromium-browser (is that thingy called app-store? start-page and click on a symblol)
i got my doubts ...
And yeah, that is what i meant above with my smartphone. Also with entertainment boxes.

When will advertisement be found in the editor?

K, None of that has got much to do with the cloud ( or? crap knows). But it makes clear that the decisions are made by companies, and you can do nothing about it.
K. Nothing legal Nah. Probably nothing.

[edbarx]

I would like to know...whether it will remain possible to have one's programs run on a local machine.

Oh of course it will. The form factor or the distribution channel(s) may change, perhaps even radically so. But local storage (and therefore local execution) is not going to disappear.

What do you mean by "the form factor or the distribution channel(s)"?

Presently, the vast majority of computers have enough RAM and enough CPU power to support a local OS together with local programs. What happens if instead of having this power, a thin client is used and execution of software is delegated to a remote server and the user is charged for the processing of their programs? In such a case, it would be impossible to run a proper OS and proper programs, because the hardware would not be capable enough. If this home computing model is promoted, the price of a conventional desktop machine with the current memory and processing power, will rise because the production of such hardware would drastically drop.

I am inclined to think the above model may be adopted, because it could help drastically reduce piracy, proprietary software companies would have their profits guaranteed, the power requirements of home computing would be drastically reduced and the cost of a home "computer" would be further reduced.

The "problem" with the above, if it materialises, are people like us, who use a non-proprietary OS and who pay nothing to buy or run their programs. It is financially unimaginable to think of a company who will allow its servers to service a Linux thin client system against no pay.

The alternative for Linux users would be to buy very expensive hardware making it financially untenable to use a locally installed and running OS together with locally running programs.

[bpaterni]

"Cloud"/Server hardware is really nothing more than desktop hardware with a super-fast connection to the internet... I'd be more worried about the government legislating away our desktop machines (or open internet model for that matter) through some asinine regulation than whatever effects a major shift towards the cloud might have on personal computing.

[edbarx]

I'd be more worried about the government legislating away our desktop machines (or open internet model for that matter) through some asinine regulation than whatever effects a major shift towards the cloud might have on personal computing.

The problem is that what I said makes it far easier for governments to pass and enforce such legislation. The cloud is a technology: on its own, it will not harm Linux and free expression, but governments and the industry can.

[nadir]

I am not sure if that helps, but i am with you edbarx
I got big concerns.

Perhaps that was already clear, but i wanted to stress it. I don't think the "nah, all is cool" approach is the right one.

I don't understand the subject well (perhaps already clear too), and that doesn't help much to limit my concerns.

[bpaterni]

Discussion is nice, though the big question is what (if anything) can be done to preserve a (relatively) free society

[nadir]

I got no answer what to do, but following the according "channels" sure won't hurt
(Also starting to get the head into darknets, proxies, VPN's and such).
The according channels often (but not always) will have got to do something with anonymous (i am not sure what to think of it, btw).
If you can't find a better way try twitter, enter anonymous in the search bar and follow what sounds interesting (lots will be annoying).
anonymous is a name for something which has no name. It's absurd to use that name, but we, humans, tend to give things names. For comfort.

Look here:
http://sopastrike.com/numbers/
As you can see google was involved. It's a giant (a bless and a curse, sure). The German law-makers give them hard times right now: Leistungsschutzrecht, which i can't translate. They shall pay if they give search results to content of papers, or at least similar to that. (on a side note).

Did that make any sense? I am not sure. It mainly translates to:
staying informed won't hurt.
Getting too excited and running a ddos for the lulz, otoh, might hurt quite a lot (you, not the ones who are getting ddos'ed. If you wanna go to prison at least go for a real attack, sqli or such. I prefer not to go to prison).

Chances are low it can be avoided. Imho. Depends on my mood.

Assuming i got off-topic already anyway:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_aWLu58Y1U
(bit of propaganda, to get on track. It's more serious than what i see usually. Not so pathetic).

PS:
All of the above is a mix of what i try to figure out for the last few months. It might be utter nonsense. I haven't made up my mind yet. But of one thing i am convinced: You will get caught if you do stupid things.

[nadir]

Discussion is nice, though the big question is what (if anything) can be done to preserve a (relatively) free society

K, i could figure out something. It's legal, it costs no nothing.
When someone tries to restrict free speech, give him the business, make fun of him, etc.
Especially fight for the right of free speech of the ones you disagree with.
fight for it? Well, simply say: "That is not ok. I don't like that" If in doubt say it often.

[korilius]

[..]The "problem" with the above, if it materialises, are people like us, who use a non-proprietary OS and who pay nothing to buy or run their programs. It is financially unimaginable to think of a company who will allow its servers to service a Linux thin client system against no pay.

The alternative for Linux users would be to buy very expensive hardware making it financially untenable to use a locally installed and running OS together with locally running programs.

Nice discussion and I agree with the possibility of it happening.. but I don't think it's going to get that bad. Once people see how (before it's too late, hopefully) much they're going to get screwed, they'll jump off the cloud or join one that is local. There are millions of us already who are feral about the idea of giving up our computing power, so don't count us out before the fight starts.

The cloud isn't going anywhere, this much I'd wager money on. As we already know, it's how we use it that determines whether we're empowered or enslaved by it. Using the cloud and SAAS and also using it as your primary file server/backup is a bad, bad idea.

I'm all for using a cloud based service if I can trust them. No SAAS stuff, backups local and remote, as it would be in any business server room. As I mentioned in my first post, you can do your own cloud based services yourself. Find/create a group of like minded people that you can trust, then create your own cloud. The software is available. I'm already toying with the idea of a user group here in town. Might go nowhere, might launch like a rocket..

[dasein]

The alternative for Linux users would be to buy very expensive hardware making it financially untenable to use a locally installed and running OS together with locally running programs.

Use your imagination to come up with at least one perfectly sensible, viable, alternate scenario. There are certainly plenty to choose from.

[edbarx]

Use your imagination to come up with at least one perfectly sensible, viable, alternate scenario. There are certainly plenty to choose from.

The only solutions I can imagine are either the one I already mentioned or using a home server to service a thin client system instead of the 'commercial' cloud. However, this is hardly a viable solution because it is far more expensive then using the cloud.

[nadir]

Use your imagination to come up with at least one perfectly sensible, viable, alternate scenario. There are certainly plenty to choose from.

The only solutions I can imagine are either the one I already mentioned or using a home server to service a thin client system instead of the 'commercial' cloud. However, this is hardly a viable solution because it is far more expensive then using the cloud.

edbarx; are you sure bout it being far more expensive?
I fool around a bit with letting a PC run 24/7 and a raspberry running 24/7. I call that a server, but it's rather desktops running all the time
(I seem to understand that it's someting very different than the cloud, with apps running remote. I said "i seem to understand").
That is ok, from a $ point of view (It might be slightly more expensive than a Vhost, it is a little more expensive than the cloud-storage, which seems really cheap). I got the advantage of being in control (plug the cable if i have to), more or less (more less than more. TheMan is the ISP, deep-package-inspecting me and what not, throttling when he is bored ... etc ... ).

To put it different: how exactly do you mean it is far more expensive?

Thanks in advance.

[dilberts_left_nut]

+1
It is maybe marginally more expesive, a recycled old box and little bit of electric.
But if your privacy is worth anything at all, then it is excellent value for money.