Is it possible to disable the "eCall" surveillance system?

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Re: Is it possible to disable the "eCall" surveillance syste

Postby Fernando Negro » 2018-07-14 00:13

4D696B65 wrote:How does this differ from GM's OnStar, Fords Synk, and Chrysler's UConnect?

It's mandatory.

(By law, within the EU, now you cannot buy a new car without an embedded cell phone, even if you and the car manufacturer wanted a car without it.)
I just *love* the stability, and also the modular installation options, of Debian. Apart from the unfortunate adoption of "systemd" (viewtopic.php?f=20&t=129881&start=165#p671030) this distribution is *great*.
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Re: Is it possible to disable the "eCall" surveillance syste

Postby Fernando Negro » 2018-07-14 00:48

And, just in case anyone has any other basic doubts about what I've wrote, in the "article" I've quoted in the original post of this thread, I'll just copy-paste here what I've just wrote to someone who was having trouble accessing the information on the second link I have left, in the references that support the claims in my "article".)

(The information on the first video is something that one can easily figure out by what is publicly known and what is denounced in the second video. Therefore, I don't think there's a need to translate it...)

1) https://cld.pt/dl/download/a0c3f4c1-09d ... _huida.mp4

2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G1fNjK9SXg

The first video is a clip that I've took from a Spanish TV program, subtitled in Portuguese, where it is explained that cell phones can be located by authorities through their IMEI numbers, even when such cell phones are supposedly turned off.

And, the second video is to a "FOX News" clip where it is denounced that the FBI and the likes can listen to people's conversations near their cell phones, even when such cell phones are also supposedly turned off.

(That is, even when this particular type of mobile communication devices - cell/smartphones - are "turned off", they can be remotely surveilled and activated. And, being this new "eCall" system, in practise, just a kind of cell phone embedded in our cars... One doesn't have to think much to figure out what can also happen in our cars...)
I just *love* the stability, and also the modular installation options, of Debian. Apart from the unfortunate adoption of "systemd" (viewtopic.php?f=20&t=129881&start=165#p671030) this distribution is *great*.
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Re: Is it possible to disable the "eCall" surveillance syste

Postby jibberjabber » 2018-07-14 02:36

These devices are intended for safety and protection, like seat belts, I don't know about in Europe, Spain or Portugal,etc, but in the US it is a law, you must use the seat belts.
One example, a car with this ecall device, you are alone, on some remote high way, and fall asleep at the wheel, go off the road, and crash, you are slowly bleeding to death, no other traffic,nobody saw you crash, the device could very well be what saves your life.
So I think one might want to think twice before disabling it.

It is possible to disable, or even completely remove them, I copied this add from 1 of the many services listed, am not posting a link, because it would then be spam:
GPS Removal Services offers professional removal services of GPS Vehicle Tracking devices from vehicles. We will inspect your vehicle and remove any device installed by a:
New or Used Car Dealer
Bank or Finance Company
Auto Title Loan Company
Current or Ex Spouse
​Domestic Violence
Stalker or Other
==================
Mobile services:
Our Mobile Technicians come to you! At your home or work, the convenience of our mobile services will save you time and money. Most services are completed within 18 hours of initial call. We also have 24-hr emergency services availability in most location
================
NEW SERVICE!!!

Want to tackle it on your own but need our help? Our Service Technicians can help guide you with locating and removing any GPS tracking device with the use of a live video feed. Skype video & messaging service is required.
LIVE VIDEO SERVICES
===============
Knowledge
Technology changes and so do we. Our owners have over 15 years each of experience with vehicle tracking devices and we stay informed on all the new products available on the market today.
We also keep alert on the new tactics companies are using in an attempt to hide the device or install it in a way that will cause damage if not removed properly.

==========================================
Head_on_a_Stick wrote:How long before they can fit these nifty little things to motorbikes? We have a real theft problem in London :mrgreen:

But seriously, perhaps some sort of Faraday Cage is in order?

Yet another example of the advantages of keeping the device active, car theft as well.
The kind of people that fear these devices, are usually criminals, obviously organized car theft gangs do not want any kind of active tracking device on the cars they steal, and would look for a way to disable it immediately, drug traffickers as well , certainly would not want this on their cars.
Of course if the devices are mandatory, and it is the law, law abiding citizens
are not going to want to disable them, also the warranty on the car , if it is a new one, I am sure would be affected.
But in any event, one can just ask around, there are shops, mechanics that know how to disable, or even completely remove it, if one looks in the right places.
It is not likely one will find any real instructions or details on how to disarm the device, with out the manufacturer even knowing it, online,.... it is sort of a
"trade secret", and obviously if the secret was published, or available in manuals, the people that make money off this would not make much of a living.
Even many of the car dealers, will and can disable the device if the customer is willing to pay, and discrete.
==cut / copied from:
Post by Fernando Negro »http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=138031#p676744

The automatically triggered eCall may be set into one of two modes:
a) automatically enabled on vehicle ignition-on;
b) permanently disabled at the request of the vehicle owner by maintenance personnel and processes approved by the equipment supplier.


But, which specific "processes approved by the equipment supplier" are those?

(If they consist on simply using a hidden “power off” button or removing a SIM card, it's known that that doesn't effectively work to guarantee a person's privacy[2]...)

Is there any approved process, guaranteed to be effective, by which one can really disable such a system?

Has anyone ever done this, and can demonstrate and explain to others how can we do it?

But, which specific "processes approved by the equipment supplier" are those?

These are "trade secrets"...
Is there any approved process, guaranteed to be effective, by which one can really disable such a system?

That might depend on who's approval one wants/needs, but yes there is , and if one is concerned about keeping the warranty on the vehicle valid, they would want to use the car dealers approved method, obviously the owner of the vehicle would also need to approve of it.
For example, if you were buying the car, and using a bank loan, or other financing plan, the bank, or entity that has the lien on vehicle, would need to
approve it, and I have my doubts that they would. You must be the real owner of the vehicle, after is is paid for , you would not need their approval.
Has anyone ever done this, and can demonstrate and explain to others how can we do it?

Yes many technicians, mechanics have done this. All though it could be demonstrated, or explained, no , this is a "trade secret".
But also, in order to explain and give exact details on the process, the tech/mechanic would need specific details, car ,make, year model, etc,GPS manufacturer, etc...... just like a computer tech needs the specific details on what OS, type of hardware, drivers,firmware, etc.
You have not provided the details necessary, to be able to do this on your vehicle.
So no, nobody will be able to go into exactly how you can do this.
Like another member said, You would need to take the vehicle to shop
that specializes in this. If you can not find any shops listed on-line, or in the yellow pages, (I am sure you can), but if you can't, ask around on the street, or ask your local car theft gang, or drug dealers, I am sure they will know where you can take the vehicle to get the device disabled.

==== edit ===
I forgot, to say about this:
b) permanently disabled at the request of the vehicle owner by maintenance personnel and processes approved by the equipment supplier.
And some comments that follow, indicate maybe you do not trust
the "equipment supplier", and that the process they use is effective, or what you need.
(If they consist on simply using a hidden “power off” button or removing a SIM card, it's known that that doesn't effectively work to guarantee a person's privacy[2]...)

In that case, you would need to take the vehicle to another shop, and have them run tests, to verify if it was effectively disabled, and your "privacy" is guaranteed to some extent, how ever keep in mind, you can not hide , nor keep secrets from everything, there all ways is something/someone watching and even your thoughts are known, even if you don't believe that, it is true and a fact that no human,beast or machine can change.
But any way, if your concerned about the police finding you, or your EX, or some political enemy, then it would be wise to have the vehicle checked in
another shop, to confirm it is secure/private , etc.
My approach would be to use a "hidden" switch, or button, this way, I could turn it on if and when I wanted to. ... but that is not obligatory.
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Re: Is it possible to disable the "eCall" surveillance syste

Postby CwF » 2018-07-14 03:55

Fernando Negro wrote:But, which specific "processes approved by the equipment supplier" are those?


A guy like me with fancy OBD2 equipment..

Fernando Negro wrote:b) permanently disabled at the request of the vehicle owner by maintenance personnel and processes approved by the equipment supplier.


This suggest secondary equipment that can be skipped. Whatever box would communicate with the "BCM". With an off setting you could safely remove the equipment. There are multiple layers to the computer, with passwords at each one. I'd bet this is a second layer permission and is a simple setting. Y/N T/F Present/NotInstalled

For a mic, bridge a small capacitor, and that's where you put the tinfoil hat switch. The sims are interesting. I have been ask to remove one and DHL it overnight to factory hq. I was curious how much info one can hold, more than we expect maybe.

Just so you're ahead of the game, realize when the day arrives when something like this is required on all vehicles on the road, disabling it may be a bad idea. There are other approaches possible.

The technology is in place already for this:
Vehicle is visible from an 'official' camera.
Said camera(s) ID the plate.
Plate>registration>VIN>access code
Cell system pings car, gets no response, maybe try again.
Vehicle determined to be in 'stealth' mode.
Probable cause is established!
You get...? Detained.

Since some level of emergency functionality is required, every cell phone can have an active cell radio without a sim. If we define OFF as not standby, the cell radio can not be remotely turned on. Since the IMEI is transmitted with every ping, and in many places more than 3 towers will 'hear' this, location info has been available for all cell phones since the first one. This level of location technology is in place regardless of gps status, an entirely different tech. If you'd like to test a device for remote on capability simply wire an ammeter between the battery and it, and watch. Periodic pulses would give it away. To repeat, pinging on an 'OFF' device is urban lore. Deep stand-by of any kind should not be called off, so this is a well obfuscated point...

Outside of all that forget the analogy to a consumer phone. It is not a phone so none of this needs to apply. With the capacity available from such a huge battery it's likely there is no 'OFF' designed in. I see no need for a sim, newer things I've seen don't have them. Customer info is flashed through OBD2 like everything else into the bcm or gauge cluster.

Interesting is many manufactureres have ways to communicate using brake pedal, steering angle, window, mirror, radio...virtual any switch possibly has a channel to the BCM that can commincate. For the technician, there is practactly always a way to bypass something. Most always this will change the mode of other things, something like bypass that and rpm is limited to 900, or the tranny will lock 2nd, something. If I were ask to do the bypass mode of a required transponder, that's exactly what I'd do. 19KPH, that's all you get buddy!

From my level I think it would be easily possible to enforce the function of such a thing. As outlined above, just as easy to figure out who's not playing nice.

Add noise to the mic, and don't take your hat off...
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Re: Is it possible to disable the "eCall" surveillance syste

Postby GarryRicketson » 2018-07-14 13:31

Something that is not clear to me, Here:
by Fernando Negro » 2018-07-13 18:13

4D696B65 wrote:
How does this differ from GM's OnStar, Fords Synk, and Chrysler's UConnect?


It's mandatory.
(By law, within the EU, now you cannot buy a new car without an embedded cell phone, even if you and the car manufacturer wanted a car without it.)
The OP indicates it is mandatory, to have these devices, ? So I wonder,
"Is it legal to disable the "eCall" surveillance system?",
Obviously it is possible, but is it legal, ? in countries where this is a mandatory law ? If it is not legal, then asking for instructions and info on how to disable or remove a device that is required by law, well, it is asking forum members to help the OP break the law.
Did some searches, but it is not clear to me if it would be legal or not to remove or disable this device. That would be something to think about though, before actually removing /disabling it.
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Re: Is it possible to disable the "eCall" surveillance syste

Postby CwF » 2018-07-14 15:54

Since the option b I quoted, removal at request, it appears to be a manufacturer requirement only, not a consumer hook. Even though it's passed off as a new EU idea, it is an Onstar competitor, a late one. Onstar satisfies the EU requirement, so there you go...

Onstar is like (what) I described. For a GM the tool is a Tech2 and a simple disable. The equipment can be disconnected. Onstar has fed the same paranoia for 20 years. Onstar's mic can be remotely operated, as can most vehicle functions through the canbus. No Onstar I'm aware of uses a sim. Of note is the older analog modules were desirable since they were 2-3X the power of a cell phone with awesome range. I believe they conformed to the 2-2.5w transmit power when they went digital. Remote mic on has been used by law enforcement, with an appropriate court order. I'm not aware of any case where a third party has hacked into Onstar. Fiat/Chrysler and Ford is another story.

I ordered my truck without Onstar and a base radio with steering wheel controls, an odd combo. It has my own 'package'.

I thought the EU was more strict than the US on these privacy issues?

Think ahead though! I'm not sure I understand the concern. Think aviation, go up in the wrong sky without a transponder and you'll have a military escort in no time. As long as there are legal alternatives, ie b) consumer request, an older vehicle, etc, it's not really an issue. By the time those options are somehow illegal, you likely won't be able to buy a vehicle with a steering wheel!

As pointed out already, these system have done more good than not..
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Re: Is it possible to disable the "eCall" surveillance syste

Postby GarryRicketson » 2018-07-14 16:31

====off topic===
I just realized, I was mis-understanding, EU, is Europe,... but here in Mexico, EU also is Estados Unidos , (U.S.) :mrgreen:
Fortunately, there is no law requiring these on my burro, (donke) yet.
But it would be use full, to have one, some times the donkey wanders away, and I could then track him, and find him easier. :mrgreen:
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Re: Is it possible to disable the "eCall" surveillance syste

Postby Bulkley » 2018-07-14 16:42

Several years ago we had a car with a phone home feature. I disconnected its antenna. In newer cars the connection has been hidden but the principle is the same.
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Re: Is it possible to disable the "eCall" surveillance syste

Postby CwF » 2018-07-14 17:49

GarryRicketson wrote:====off topic===
on my burro


Burro: "Yes sir, I can carry your little gadget sir."
Dog: "thankyou tracker tracker thank you thank you lick lick"
Cat: "ummm, I don't think so, back up human back UPHUMANAHAHAHAAAAAHHHHHHHHH, RUN!"
Parrot: "I'm gonna break it I'm gonna break it I'm gonna break it"
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Re: Is it possible to disable the "eCall" surveillance syste

Postby Fernando Negro » 2018-07-15 16:03

For those who might feel tempted to agree with arguments that have been made in this thread, that this type of surveillance system is well-intended (because, you know, "Big Brother loves you") and that may also think that the Western "powers-that-be" always act within the Law:

Obviously, this type of system is going to be used to (illegally) surveil people. And, if you have any doubts about it, read and listen to what Edward Snowden has to say about illegal spying activity by the NSA, for example - or check the following links: https://www.infowars.com/nsa-spying-on- ... -generals/ + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NA6Skza7QA

(Same thing as with the computers now present in some cars, that can take over the control of the driving, supposedly to avoid accidents. Those computers are not (really) there to avoid accidents. They are there to make you have an accident, in case you want to do something that the "powers-that-be" don't want you to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUYMPZ4nEOY#t=29m)
Last edited by Fernando Negro on 2018-07-15 16:22, edited 1 time in total.
I just *love* the stability, and also the modular installation options, of Debian. Apart from the unfortunate adoption of "systemd" (viewtopic.php?f=20&t=129881&start=165#p671030) this distribution is *great*.
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Re: Is it possible to disable the "eCall" surveillance syste

Postby Fernando Negro » 2018-07-15 16:11

Now, if anyone knows of any case of somebody who has been able to (supposedly) disable this new "eCall" system in his/her car, according to "processes approved by the equipment supplier", please share such information.
I just *love* the stability, and also the modular installation options, of Debian. Apart from the unfortunate adoption of "systemd" (viewtopic.php?f=20&t=129881&start=165#p671030) this distribution is *great*.
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Re: Is it possible to disable the "eCall" surveillance syste

Postby jibberjabber » 2018-07-15 16:50

"Big Brother loves you") and that may also think that the Western "powers-that-be" always act within the Law:

Of course they do, and Eastern powers as well, ... When something they decide to do is not within the law, they change the law to accommodate, thus they all ways are acting within the laws ..
There are all ways 2 sides to a "argument" ,
Fernando Negro » 2018-07-15 16:03
For those who might feel tempted to agree with arguments that have been made in this thread, ----

Nobody will ever agree, there all ways will be some one else that believes something else, this whole topic is really rather pointless, ... The political view points of various activists, and reality will never agree.
==== edit === one last thought===
y Fernando Negro »--- snip---in case you want to do something that the "powers-that-be" don't want you to:

I am not interested in youtube and the political propaganda, so did not view all your youtube and blog links, But wake up,
The reality is , the "powers-that-be" will and can do what ever they choose to do. If they decide they want to watch every move you make, removing this "ecall" device from your car ,or any other car,will not stop them, they can and will still follow,and watch you. You can run , but you cannot hide.
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Re: Is it possible to disable the "eCall" surveillance syste

Postby golinux » 2018-07-15 17:49

So let's collectively moon them. And laugh while doing it! :D
May the FORK be with you!
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Re: Is it possible to disable the "eCall" surveillance syste

Postby CwF » 2018-07-15 18:13

Fernando Negro wrote: please share such information.


I've tried to lay it for you. And now I wonder, have you simply ask the dealer?

If I had one in front of me you'd have your answer. The worlds opinion doesn't matter here. You need to find a local me.

I'm interested in this. I've read around. I see no issue without an answer.

Specifically - What make and model? Exact questions yield exact answers. I think maybe you're looking for a universal answer. There isn't one.
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Re: Is it possible to disable the "eCall" surveillance syste

Postby Fernando Negro » 2018-07-16 13:46

CwF wrote:
Fernando Negro wrote: please share such information.


I've tried to lay it for you. And now I wonder, have you simply ask the dealer?

If I had one in front of me you'd have your answer. The worlds opinion doesn't matter here. You need to find a local me.

I'm interested in this. I've read around. I see no issue without an answer.

Specifically - What make and model? Exact questions yield exact answers. I think maybe you're looking for a universal answer. There isn't one.

Because the national representative of a particular brand that I've checked the website of doesn't list anything more than a physical address and a phone number for the closest dealer, I wrongly deduced that that was all there was, and that this dealer was made out of "old school" type of people, who didn't use websites and e-mail. And so, I hadn't yet had the opportunity to go there, with documentation that I still had to print and such, in order to ask questions.

But, after having been reminded of such contact by your comment, and having yesterday looked for more information about such local dealer on the Internet, I happily found out that they have a website of their own, after all - and that, very conveniently, also use e-mail.

I will then write to them, when I can - and, if I get a satisfactory response from them, I will post here something about it.

Although, what I'm really looking for - in case it's really possible to effectively "disable" such system - is for some case of someone who has already done (in the past) this kind of procedure - so that we can all be sure (i.e. have real/hard proofs) that this can be done...
I just *love* the stability, and also the modular installation options, of Debian. Apart from the unfortunate adoption of "systemd" (viewtopic.php?f=20&t=129881&start=165#p671030) this distribution is *great*.
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