Worrying trend.

[golinux]

@keithpeter and @edbarx . . . going back to the sudo thing for a moment . . .

Later in the course, su vs sudo was actually presented in some detail. Makes sense in a multi-user environment (which is not what I have here). I still use su and will continue to do so. Sudo just brings up too many negative memories of my 'buntard days . . .

[edbarx]

@keithpeter and @edbarx . . . going back to the sudo thing for a moment . . .

Later in the course, su vs sudo was actually presented in some detail. Makes sense in a multi-user environment (which is not what I have here). I still use su and will continue to do so. Sudo just brings up too many negative memories of my 'buntard days . . .

The negative memories should only be attached to using sudo to override root as that is really what one does when one configures sudo the Ubuntu way. Take courage and fight this impression: sudo has its uses, but use it to enhance security instead.

Let me recount how I used sudo to initiate a wifi connection without a network manager. To connect manually, one needs to run:

Code: Select all

# ifup wlan0

This requires root privileges as it uses ifup. I wrapped the command in a script, placed it in /sbin, gave the script the same permissions as files in /sbin and configured sudo to allow only that script to run invoking sudo. This made it possible to use the command only with the parameters I permitted instead of allowing the use of ifup with all the parameters it can take by default. You see, sudo can enhance security but you have to use it wisely.

[goulo]

golinux:
FWIW I find that your persistent use of the contrived insults "butnut"/"buntard"/etc tends to detract and distract from the actual content of your posts.

(In case it matters, I am not an Ubuntu user.)

[golinux]

golinux:
FWIW I find that your persistent use of the contrived insults "butnut"/"buntard"/etc tends to detract and distract from the actual content of your posts.

Ah so, Grasshopper . . . Then you will be perpetually distracted on this board as that terminology is very much a part of the FDN lexicon. Those terms were in use long before I became a member here.

[Linadian]

golinux:
FWIW I find that your persistent use of the contrived insults "butnut"/"buntard"/etc tends to detract and distract from the actual content of your posts.

(In case it matters, I am not an Ubuntu user.)

*waves hand in the air*, "I got one, I got one", lol...Ewwwwwwwbuntu, PAH!

On a more serious note, the plan to have Ubuntu maintain Jessie's kernel (3.16) when Jessie goes stable is raising alarm bells, and not just with me, there's chatter. Why not just go with 3.14 or the next highest LTS kernel?!

[vbrummond]

On a more serious note, the plan to have Ubuntu maintain Jessie's kernel (3.16) when Jessie goes stable is raising alarm bells, and not just with me, there's chatter. Why not just go with 3.14 or the next highest LTS kernel?!

I have read about this. I wonder if this might deserve it's own thread if others are interested in the discussion. Of course mistrusting Canonical as I do this may seem like a bad thing. I trust Ben Hutchings (the kernel maintainer) though. Patches that come from Ubuntu are likely to be open source, and reviewed by the Debian kernel team. I am sure they can backport fixes that are safe from the newer kernels. Though honestly, I would agree go with the LTS from kernel.org if at all possible.

[Randicus]

Nice to see how much influence Butnut is gaining with Debian development.
http://debian.2.n7.nabble.com/Kernel-ve ... 42912.html

Obviously, it would be great to see Debian and Ubuntu sharing a stable
kernel, and I would be more than happy to help making that possible.

Which is the parent and which is the derivative? Hard to tell sometimes. Why beat around the bush? Why wait while Shuttleworth gradually takes control of Debian? Might as well just give it to him. Debian Unstable could then become Butnut Testing; what is currently Debian Testing could become the Butnut OS; Debian Stable, all references to Debian, GNU and Linux could be eliminated; and links to Amazon, Ebay, et al could be added to Unity, while all other GUIs are eliminated. (And Wine made part of the default installation of course.)

I wonder if this might deserve it's own thread if others are interested in the discussion.

What the Hell? Why not?

[mor]

Yes, the free software stick does not boycott the hardware, but it does provide the option of not installing non-free software. It is not the best solution, but at least it is a step in the right direction.

(Emphasis added)

Not really if you think about it.

Don't get me wrong, I stated it in my last post, it is commendable to take the trouble to buy and configure and use an external device in place of the "non-free" one, but it is a workaround.
Workarounds by definition are not solutions to the original problem, and as such can hardly be considered steps in the right direction.

The only thing that can be regarded as a step in the right direction is the spirit of sacrifice, which I said is commendable.

If this particular workaround was a step in the right direction, then the place were we are going to would be one where what's important is not "to have 'free-hardware' ", but simply not to make use of it.
And this is not the case.

As an example to clarify my point of view, think about how wiping Windows from the computers we buy in stores, and installing on them our systems of choice, is not a solution to get rid of proprietary systems pre-installed, but is a workaround. The number of computers sold with Windows on it is still the same, therefore it is not a step in the right direction, is a workaround.

We are limited by the hardware that is available. With computers containing wireless equipment difficult to find, this device at least gives the option of not polluting the OS with non-free software. It is not perfect, but better than nothing.

Of course.

Still, it is a workaround.

[Loomx]

Let me recount how I used sudo to initiate a wifi connection without a network manager. To connect manually, one needs to run:

Code: Select all

# ifup wlan0

This requires root privileges as it uses ifup. I wrapped the command in a script, placed it in /sbin, gave the script the same permissions as files in /sbin and configured sudo to allow only that script to run invoking sudo. This made it possible to use the command only with the parameters I permitted instead of allowing the use of ifup with all the parameters it can take by default. You see, sudo can enhance security but you have to use it wisely.

I couldn't agree more; it's these kind of specific uses of sudo that give you complete control of which user has which permissions, using standard *nix tools.
You can also specify parameters along with commands in the /etc/sudoers file to further enhance security, e.g.

Code: Select all

youruser ALL = /sbin/iwconfig wlan0

/offtopic

Code: Select all

...to initiate a wifi connection without a network manager.

My latest discovery is `wpa_gui', which is a useful tool for helping you configure wpa_supplicant to connect to new wireless networks if you'd rather not use networkmanager.

[hakerdefo]

Default init system for the next Debian stable will come from Red Hat and default kernel will be maintained by Canonical!!!
A real worrying trend!!!
Cheers!!!

[Randicus]

It cannot be real. It must be the plot of a horror movie.

[vbrummond]

Sorry guys a lot of the kernel, gnome, and lsb comes from Red Hat too. FUD.

[edbarx]

I am starting to come to terms with the new changes in Debian. Yes, there was anger and rejection, but now, I am remembering what happened about five years ago when xorg.conf was discarded for an Xorg that automatically configures itself. At first it was shock and denial, then, as I used it, it was a relief. As a consequence, blank screens have become a rarity and the GNU/Linux experience has improved. So, my attitude is now changing into one of "we will see". What is not acceptable, is that GNU/Linux sacrifices its functionality, as there is too much functionality even in terminals and CLI programs. However, it is inconceivable that GNU/Linux discards completely the CLI interface, and I think, Debian will make sure its version of systemd will provide functionality for startup scripts as the situation currently is. Imagine the turmoil it would cause to so many people having Debian servers. So, a continuation is a necessity rather than an option. I am sure, the Debian developers are not that stupid to ignore so many server farms powered by the distribution they work for.

So, let us give it time.

[golinux]

Sorry guys a lot of the kernel, gnome, and lsb comes from Red Hat too. FUD.

I find it difficult to believe that any commercial interest/business/corporation can truly be part of an open community. What is developed and the course of that development will vary from company to company but the bottom line will always be self-interest. Sure they may contribute that code, But can it really be trusted and is it in the best interest of the community at large? I am quite suspicious of the usual suspects - Red Hat, Gnome and Ubuntu. We get what's good for them. Not what's good for us outsiders. That kinda sucks IMO.

[keithpeter]

I am quite suspicious of the usual suspects - Red Hat, Gnome and Ubuntu. We get what's good for them. Not what's good for us outsiders. That kinda sucks IMO.

'They' are selling products and services to a wider 'market', and developing *in public*. You can read the mailing lists (my personal favorite was the 50+ post 'professional discussion' on centos-devel recently about *version numbering* and the result was actually a sensible compromise, but not before a fair amount of shouting).

If the big three (Enterprise Linux - Red Hat and clones; Suze; Debian derived OSes including Ubuntu for server) started doing anything really strange, you'd hear about it from the 'consumers' soon enough. And of course, Torvalds *famously* calls out any kind of shenanigans with the kernel. ABI is sacred.

PS: what version of CentOS? 6 or 7?

[vbrummond]

You will have to get used to corporate contributors in any widely used operating system. I don't mind at all as long as the changes have at least some fair review and are open. If I don't like a feature, I could try to patch it out, or just move to something that works for me.

[golinux]

PS: what version of CentOS? 6 or 7?

Looks like 6x. Have included the other 'suggested' distros for comparison:

The Linux kernel 2.6.32 is used in RHEL/CentOS 6.x
The Linux kernel 3.11 is used in openSUSE 12.3.
The Linux kernel 3.13 is used in Ubuntu 14.04.

[Randicus]

Sorry guys a lot of the kernel, gnome, and lsb comes from Red Hat too. FUD.

I find it difficult to believe that any commercial interest/business/corporation can truly be part of an open community.make

Why not? Investing a little of the company's profit in development will result in more profits. For a company that makes money off of open source, investing in open source is smart. If a company tries to control development, that is a different matter.

As for the FUD in the quote from vbrummond, Gnome should not have been used as an example. One of the main reasons Gnome has moved in such an awful direction is that its development is highly influenced by Red Hat's money. Not only has Gnome's interface been influenced by the desires behind the money, Gnome was also very quick to begin incorporating systemd (another Red Hat offering).

[dilberts_left_nut]

https://www.wordnik.com/words/FUD

[buntunub]

I think you can't really point at one small subset of data such as your OP and say there is a hard trend among users. What you can say is that those who are posting seem to be doing this or that thing. Those folks who install Debian just so they can say they use Linux is a tad far fetched IMO. Installing Debian requires more effort than someone who just has a passing fancy in Linux generally would have the patience for. Also, the Windows games thing is passe these days, because a large and ever growing number of STEAM hosted games now run natively in Linux, and to my knowledge, ALL STEAM games run natively in Linux - DOTA, etc.. In fact, the last bastion holdout for non-Linux friendly games is the MMOs, and they are a dying breed anyway. Heck, I have not even logged into Windows now for going on a year, and can't even remember my password anymore even if I did want to do that, because I don't need to. Every game I play now runs out of the box in Linux and is fully supported from the company that way (ie. tech support is available for Linux users if things go wrong, and the games are fully tested in Linux before release).

So, the point is, there really is much less of a need for folks to need WINE for games these days thanks largely to industry trending towards the use of Linux for many popular mainstream applications.