Scheduled Maintenance: We are aware of an issue with Google, AOL, and Yahoo services as email providers which are blocking new registrations. We are trying to fix the issue and we have several internal and external support tickets in process to resolve the issue. Please see: viewtopic.php?t=158230

 

 

 

Worrying trend.

Off-Topic discussions about science, technology, and non Debian specific topics.
Message
Author
User avatar
golinux
Posts: 1579
Joined: 2010-12-09 00:56
Location: not a 'buntard!
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Worrying trend.

#181 Post by golinux »

Randicus . . . you have a PM over at DUF. You have PMs turned off here.
May the FORK be with you!

Randicus
Posts: 2663
Joined: 2011-05-08 09:11

Re: Worrying trend.

#182 Post by Randicus »

Good news. It has been brought to my attention that a wireless connection can be achieved without installing non-free software. A company called Netgear makes USB sticks with proprietory-less wireless software.
http://www.debianuserforums.org/viewtop ... 701#p27701
golinux wrote:You have PMs turned off here.
Strange. I remember enabling them. Must be a bug in the board. Someone tell me how to fix it! Quickly!

User avatar
golinux
Posts: 1579
Joined: 2010-12-09 00:56
Location: not a 'buntard!
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Worrying trend.

#183 Post by golinux »

Randicus wrote:
golinux wrote:You have PMs turned off here.
Strange. I remember enabling them. Must be a bug in the board. Someone tell me how to fix it! Quickly!
You can fix it via the User Control Panel (unless the board is broken).
May the FORK be with you!

Randicus
Posts: 2663
Joined: 2011-05-08 09:11

Re: Worrying trend.

#184 Post by Randicus »

Too late. I already fixed it myself. The members of this board provide terrible customer support!

I do remember enabling them, so what happened? Apparently, the board did not like my "Submit" command. :lol:

Randicus
Posts: 2663
Joined: 2011-05-08 09:11

Re: Worrying trend.

#185 Post by Randicus »

The thread is so long I forget if it has already been mentioned, but another worrying trend is the large number of new users appearing on boards all over the internet asking for help with basic questions using Testing. The proverb, learning to walk before trying to run, must have fallen out of use.

kedaha
Posts: 3521
Joined: 2008-05-24 12:26
Has thanked: 33 times
Been thanked: 77 times

Re: Worrying trend.

#186 Post by kedaha »

How about adding distro hopping and frequent re-installation to the trend? To quote from a recent article:
I know several people who make a habit of changing distributions every few weeks. They install a new distribution, and for a few days they have nothing but praise for it. But the honeymoon soon ends, the complaints start, and they are back hunting for the perfect version of Linux.
DebianStable

Code: Select all

$ vrms

No non-free or contrib packages installed on debian!  rms would be proud.

User avatar
mor
Posts: 970
Joined: 2010-08-28 15:16
Location: mor@debian

Re: Worrying trend.

#187 Post by mor »

Randicus wrote:Good news. It has been brought to my attention that a wireless connection can be achieved without installing non-free software.
Ed pointed at this issue a few posts back, and I feel like agreeing with him.

Once a laptop or other device is bought, it doesn't make much difference to forfeit the use of "non-free parts" on it.
Yes, strictly speaking one is "purer" but what would really make sense, if this is what we are looking at, is to avoid non-free in the first place.

I'm not of the opinion that a boycott of large manufacturer by the limited number of "linux" users is imperative right now.
Boycott only works if large numbers join in and I therefore think that inspiring people that are not currently interested in software and hardware freedom is far more important than simply boycotting (although is desirable and commendable).
So once a user is "fully free" by adding an external wireless card, he is certainly going the extra mile which is what I mean when I say "making sacrifices", but that can't be considered a solution because the piece of hardware that requires non-free is still there.

The reason why the users of the many undesirable trends we described in this thread are so troublesome, is because we "sense" instinctively that what is at risk is the very foundation of the word of operating systems that are not proprietary.

One can argue that "linuxes and friends" are better for a wealth of technical reasons, that what makes these system desirable over Microsoft's and Apple's is in their reliability or efficiency, but really what is different is the fact that is the product of a different school of thought, one that privileges sharing and understanding and knowledge and freedom over convenience and profit.

We can lose ourselves in trivial discussion about whether systems are easy or difficult, dumbed down or not, about whether using the command line is really so difficult or if point-clicking is really so despicably dumb, but in the end the only thing that counts, that is different between this part of the world and the other is the root in freedom.

That is the only thing that counts, the only thing that really matters and the only thing that a user embracing "linux and friends" should be aware of and care for.

All the rest, cli or gui, systemd or sysvinit Gnome or Fluxbox, Canonical and Debian are merely smoke in the eyes, distractions that make us lose our focus on the real thing that matter.

User avatar
edbarx
Posts: 5401
Joined: 2007-07-18 06:19
Location: 35° 50 N, 14 º 35 E
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Worrying trend.

#188 Post by edbarx »

As I see it, the manufacturing global forces are moving away from openess. This can be observed not only where computer hardware is involved, but also, in other unrelated areas of production. Just have a gossip with an electronic repairs technician or a automobile mechanic. Gone are the days when parts could be fitted from a different manufacturer. Now, even screws and bolts need special tools! I remember the days when electronic circuits for TVs could be availed of, but nowadays, this has become so rare if not impossible.

I can continue but you know what I mean.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.

User avatar
llivv
Posts: 5340
Joined: 2007-02-14 18:10
Location: cold storage

Re: Worrying trend.

#189 Post by llivv »

mor wrote:All the rest, cli or gui, systemd or sysvinit Gnome or Fluxbox, Canonical and Debian are merely smoke in the eyes, distractions that make us lose our focus on the real thing that matter.
Exactly!
And this problem is so much bigger than most can comprehend. I know it is hard for me to comprehend how easily I can be lead astray from my path.
Or even be sure of exactly what my real path is for that matter as I strive to find my bearings through all the twists and turns.
I'm bombarded with so much daily it is sometimes bewildering to make any sense of it all.
And putting on the blinders and muttling though another day does little to help keep focus on what I am as I deal with what I'm not and/or don't want to be, everyday.
Yet our paths are often laid out for us, by respons-ibilities, culture, desires and many other aspects of our daily lives.
It seems to create a larger divide between us and other and even ourselves all the time.
In memory of Ian Ashley Murdock (1973 - 2015) founder of the Debian project.

Randicus
Posts: 2663
Joined: 2011-05-08 09:11

Re: Worrying trend.

#190 Post by Randicus »

mor wrote:
Randicus wrote:Good news. It has been brought to my attention that a wireless connection can be achieved without installing non-free software.
Ed pointed at this issue a few posts back, and I feel like agreeing with him.

Once a laptop or other device is bought, it doesn't make much difference to forfeit the use of "non-free parts" on it.
Yes, the free software stick does not boycott the hardware, but it does provide the option of not installing non-free software. It is not the best solution, but at least it is a step in the right direction. We are limited by the hardware that is available. With computers containing wireless equipment difficult to find, this device at least gives the option of not polluting the OS with non-free software. It is not perfect, but better than nothing.

User avatar
dasein
Posts: 7680
Joined: 2011-03-04 01:06
Location: Terra Incantationum

Re: Worrying trend.

#191 Post by dasein »

Returning to the original spirit of this thread...

My current pet peeve is folks who try to pre-constrain the solution(s) they are offered...
"Help me, but don't get technical."
(Excuse me, but this is a technical forum; what sort of discussion exactly did you expect to find here... botany?)
"Help me, but don't give me CLI commands."
(Sure, I'm not using the next half-hour of my life. Click on foo, then scroll down to the entry for bar; right-click on bar, then...)

What's next? "Help me, but only if you're left-handed and live in Belize"????

:twisted:

Randicus
Posts: 2663
Joined: 2011-05-08 09:11

Re: Worrying trend.

#192 Post by Randicus »

dasein wrote:
"Help me, but don't get technical."
Probably for most people such things are more a bad choice of words. "Try to use non-technical terminology if you can" would be better. Although there are a few people who are indeed demanding answers in a style of their choosing. They must be too impatient to wait and see what kind of answers they get before making demands.
"Help me, but don't give me CLI commands."
The obvious reply; "Do not use an OS with access to a terminal." :shock:

Granted, I am an asshole, but when someone demands a certain type an answer, my first impulse is to give them exactly what they do not want. :twisted:

Randicus
Posts: 2663
Joined: 2011-05-08 09:11

Re: Worrying trend.

#193 Post by Randicus »

Another addition to the list. Although it s not a new trend, is damn annoying.
People who use Testing, because they want newer software and complaining, because updates throw kinks into the system. "I realise it is a testing system, but it should still be stable. Why can't Debian make a stable system?"

User avatar
edbarx
Posts: 5401
Joined: 2007-07-18 06:19
Location: 35° 50 N, 14 º 35 E
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Worrying trend.

#194 Post by edbarx »

I think the root problem is the expectation from beginners who imagine an OS, whatever that may be, should provide all the functionality they need for today's computer tasks. We have to keep in mind that people who come to GNU/Linux, most probably, didn't start to use it from the first time they used a computer. This means, they have no other idea and simply cannot imagine something different.

While reading about GNU/Linux may help a beginner adapt to Linux faster, this is usually not enough without concrete exposure. This was the case with me: although I read about GNU/Linux for a whole year, it was experience with it which started to put things in their correct perpective. I think, we are expecting too much from beginners, learning takes time, and reading manuals, books, whatever, is not as an efficient learning tool as concrete exposure.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.

Randicus
Posts: 2663
Joined: 2011-05-08 09:11

Re: Worrying trend.

#195 Post by Randicus »

True, but those of us who are ranting are not complaining about ignorance and lack of experience. The complaints are about two kinds of people: those who do not want learn and expect their free system to be just like the one they used to pay for; and those who lack any vestige of common sense. (Like not making the correlation between testing and instability.) But people who exhibit these characteristics can be tolerated if, after a while, they realise a change in mindset would be beneficial. The problem is when they get angry at good advice, tell the experienced users they are wrong, and generally make asses of themselves. How many laughs have been provided by people claiming,"You people that warn against using the power of root are clinging to the superstitious ways of the past"?

Ignorance and lack of experience are not problems. Everyone begins as a beginner. The difference is the attitude toward adjusting to something new that one brings to a new experience.


And another item to add to the list of trends. It is an old trend now, but still worthy of rebuke. People who join a forum and immediately chastise existing members for their behaviour and lecture them on how they should behave. Another case of no common sense. If I voluntarily join a club, and presumably read the rules before joining, why would I criticise everyone and campaign for the club to change in order to accommodate me? I asked to join.

User avatar
golinux
Posts: 1579
Joined: 2010-12-09 00:56
Location: not a 'buntard!
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Worrying trend.

#196 Post by golinux »

@keithpeter and @edbarx . . . going back to the sudo thing for a moment . . .

Later in the course, su vs sudo was actually presented in some detail. Makes sense in a multi-user environment (which is not what I have here). I still use su and will continue to do so. Sudo just brings up too many negative memories of my 'buntard days . . .
May the FORK be with you!

User avatar
edbarx
Posts: 5401
Joined: 2007-07-18 06:19
Location: 35° 50 N, 14 º 35 E
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Worrying trend.

#197 Post by edbarx »

golinux wrote:@keithpeter and @edbarx . . . going back to the sudo thing for a moment . . .

Later in the course, su vs sudo was actually presented in some detail. Makes sense in a multi-user environment (which is not what I have here). I still use su and will continue to do so. Sudo just brings up too many negative memories of my 'buntard days . . .
The negative memories should only be attached to using sudo to override root as that is really what one does when one configures sudo the Ubuntu way. Take courage and fight this impression: sudo has its uses, but use it to enhance security instead.

Let me recount how I used sudo to initiate a wifi connection without a network manager. To connect manually, one needs to run:

Code: Select all

# ifup wlan0
This requires root privileges as it uses ifup. I wrapped the command in a script, placed it in /sbin, gave the script the same permissions as files in /sbin and configured sudo to allow only that script to run invoking sudo. This made it possible to use the command only with the parameters I permitted instead of allowing the use of ifup with all the parameters it can take by default. You see, sudo can enhance security but you have to use it wisely.
Last edited by edbarx on 2014-08-07 21:38, edited 2 times in total.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.

goulo
Posts: 47
Joined: 2012-01-19 09:52

Re: Worrying trend.

#198 Post by goulo »

golinux:
FWIW I find that your persistent use of the contrived insults "butnut"/"buntard"/etc tends to detract and distract from the actual content of your posts.

(In case it matters, I am not an Ubuntu user.)

User avatar
golinux
Posts: 1579
Joined: 2010-12-09 00:56
Location: not a 'buntard!
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Worrying trend.

#199 Post by golinux »

goulo wrote:golinux:
FWIW I find that your persistent use of the contrived insults "butnut"/"buntard"/etc tends to detract and distract from the actual content of your posts.
Ah so, Grasshopper . . . Then you will be perpetually distracted on this board as that terminology is very much a part of the FDN lexicon. ;) Those terms were in use long before I became a member here.
May the FORK be with you!

User avatar
Linadian
Posts: 490
Joined: 2013-12-20 15:25
Location: In a systemd free distro

Re: Worrying trend.

#200 Post by Linadian »

goulo wrote:golinux:
FWIW I find that your persistent use of the contrived insults "butnut"/"buntard"/etc tends to detract and distract from the actual content of your posts.

(In case it matters, I am not an Ubuntu user.)
*waves hand in the air*, "I got one, I got one", lol...Ewwwwwwwbuntu, PAH! :shock: :wink: :lol:

On a more serious note, the plan to have Ubuntu maintain Jessie's kernel (3.16) when Jessie goes stable is raising alarm bells, and not just with me, there's chatter. Why not just go with 3.14 or the next highest LTS kernel?! :?
Linux Registered User 533946

Post Reply