Void Linux Drops Systemd

[mmix]

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=n ... px=MTc4NDM

YES! we need more distros like this.

Void Linux dropped systemd support in favor of Runit. Systemd can be optionally used but Runit has become the default init system. Runit aims to be a SysVinit replacement that runs on Linux and other BSD/OSX/Solaris platforms.

[levlaz]

So replacing an initd replacement with another replacement is the solution?

[koanhead]

So replacing an initd replacement with another replacement is the solution?

Yes.
Systemd, runit, Upstart, OpenRC and many of the other available replacements for SysV init offer some very attractive features. Service supervision is great, because you can get a reliable list of running services. Dependency-based service management is great, because it speeds up boots and shutdowns and simplifies management. Supervision also allows for actions on change of service state, like restarting a service if it dies.

SysVinit can't do any of this stuff, and it would be so much work to patch sysvinit to do this stuff that developers would rather write whole new init systems. All the alternative init systems have advantages and drawbacks, and those advantages and drawbacks are different. Going back to sysvinit isn't an option for everyone any more than migrating to systemd is for everyone.

[buntunub]

I think what Levlaz is getting at is that there is no logical need for a new INIT system. SysVInit does the job as it has for 20 years or so. Even if there was some overriding need for a new INIT system, it should not be one strong armed on everyone. Debian is about freedom and choice. Forcing everyone to use a PID 1 INIT system like Systemd on Jessie+, an INIT system that is becoming increasingly monolithic, is counter to everything that Debian and Linux has stood for since their foundings.

Another way of looking at it. Systemd is OK and wonderful from the Debian perspective to run, so long as it allows for freedom of choice in WMs, and even other INIT systems to run along side it, or to replace it. If I choose to use SysVInit in Jessie, that should be my choice. If I choose to run Systemd, again, that should be my choice, but BOTH need to be supported and available user choices.

Yet another historical perspective.. GNOME 3. Yeah, remember when Debian moved to GNOME3 for Wheezy?.. Much hullabaloo about that. I tried it and absolutely HATED it. Not such a big deal in the grand scheme of things. I switched to using KDE full time and love it. I had the choice of WMs to use, and I switched. Can I do that with Systemd in its current incarnation?

[koanhead]

I think what Levlaz is getting at is that there is no logical need for a new INIT system. SysVInit does the job as it has for 20 years or so.

But there is a need for the features I cited, for some use cases. The fact that systemd and friends isn't needed for your particular use case (or mine) doesn't mean it shouldn't exist. I don't think you (or anyone else) is arguing that systemd shouldn't exist, but some folks don't want to use it.

Even if there was some overriding need for a new INIT system, it should not be one strong armed on everyone. Debian is about freedom and choice...

Another way of looking at it. Systemd is OK and wonderful from the Debian perspective to run, so long as it allows for freedom of choice in WMs, and even other INIT systems to run along side it, or to replace it. If I choose to use SysVInit in Jessie, that should be my choice. If I choose to run Systemd, again, that should be my choice, but BOTH need to be supported and available user choices.

I agree. systemd is good to have as an available choice. I don't think anyone is arguing that systemd does not belong in Debian.

If you go back and look at the relevant threads on debian-devel, you'll see that a lot of DDs didn't/don't want to support multiple inits. Evidently it's too much work. Debian already supports multiple kernels, multiple architectures and multiple DE's, but apparently multiple inits is too much: and that's entirely legitimate. Debian devs are volunteers, so they get to decide what they are going to work on. We can't make them do it, but we can do it ourselves. If you want to support sysvinit going forward, no one will stop you and plenty of people will help you.

But Debian does need to choose a default and decide which system to officially support. sysvinit is not going to be that choice. One of the few clear indications from the various list threads, wiki pages and forum posts by DDs is that sysvinit's days are numbered. So, even if you favor sysvinit, support it with code, and keep it working flawlessly, it's probably not ever again going to be the default init in Debian.

Personally I favor OpenRC, because it offers some of the more important features (dependency based control of services and tracking of service states) and is portable to non-linux and non-x86 systems (allegedly, I don't know if this has been done). I don't have the knowledge to develop it, but I do intend to start using it fairly soon, and to support it soon after that.

Yet another historical perspective.. GNOME 3. Yeah, remember when Debian moved to GNOME3 for Wheezy?.. Much hullabaloo about that. I tried it and absolutely HATED it. Not such a big deal in the grand scheme of things. I switched to using KDE full time and love it. I had the choice of WMs to use, and I switched. Can I do that with Systemd in its current incarnation?

Yes. I'm currently running Jessie with sysvinit as PID1. I have one or two systemd-related packages still installed (logind-related ones) but others have none at all. It's possible but difficult. This is Testing. Difficulties happen.
If you want to avoid systemd in Debian, don't run Jessie. Wheezy doesn't have systemd as default. Wheezy is still stable, and some folks are undertaking to support it in the long term.

But you can't avoid systemd components in Jessie if you use GNOME3. The GNOME3 devs don't support that. You can still use a different PID1.

[buntunub]

I understand. But the real question is, can another INIT system run in Jessie - OpenRC, SysV, Upstart, etc.. Pick the system. I know that logind is a problem, although I hear the upstream GNOME guys/gals would be happy to receive a patch to fix that problem. If one chooses any other WM, as you say, is it fairly simple to switch to another INIT system?

[koanhead]

I understand. But the real question is, can another INIT system run in Jessie - OpenRC, SysV, Upstart, etc.. Pick the system.

I'm typing this on a Jessie box with sysvinit as PID1.
I am currently using Awesome WM, the machine also has LXDE installed. Lightdm is the display manager- it needs either consolekit or libpam-systemd per `aptitude why`:

Code: Select all

$ aptitude why systemd-shim
i   task-lxde-desktop Depends lightdm                             
i A lightdm           Depends consolekit | libpam-systemd         
p   libpam-systemd    Depends systemd-sysv | systemd-shim (>= 6-4)

I have consolekit installed and not libpam-systemd. I have these systemd components installed:

Code: Select all

$ aptitude search ~nsystemd~i
i A libsystemd-id128-0                       - systemd 128 bit ID utility library (deprecated)   
i A libsystemd-id128-0:i386                  - systemd 128 bit ID utility library (deprecated)   
i A libsystemd-journal0                      - systemd journal utility library (deprecated)      
i A libsystemd-journal0:i386                 - systemd journal utility library (deprecated)      
i A libsystemd-login0                        - systemd login utility library (deprecated)        
i   systemd-shim                             - shim for systemd  

If I tell aptitude to remove them (except for systemd-shim) then I get the following:

Code: Select all

The following packages have unmet dependencies:
 dbus : Depends: libsystemd-journal0 (>= 38) but it is not going to be installed.
 libpulse0 : Depends: libsystemd-id128-0 (>= 38) but it is not going to be installed.
             Depends: libsystemd-journal0 (>= 183) but it is not going to be installed.
 libpulse0:i386 : Depends: libsystemd-id128-0:i386 (>= 38) but it is not going to be installed.
                  Depends: libsystemd-journal0:i386 (>= 183) but it is not going to be installed.

So, in order to use PulseAudio and dbus, those components are necessary. I could do without PulseAudio if I could be bothered to clean up the mess it leaves behind after uninstalling (I tried it before and things broke; rather than take the time to fix it I just reinstalled PA). I'm not willing to do without dbus.

I know that logind is a problem, although I hear the upstream GNOME guys/gals would be happy to receive a patch to fix that problem. If one chooses any other WM, as you say, is it fairly simple to switch to another INIT system?

Thanks to Steve Langasek, running without systemd as PID1 is as easy as installing systemd-shim. Running without other systemd components is more difficult, but it can be done- depending to the degree to which you're willing to do without other packages.