operating systems without systemd

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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby mardybear » 2015-12-21 09:59

Wow, old thread revived. Forum's so quiet now that most systemd haters left...no more drama.

Presently enjoying dCore-jessie, BusyBox-based Tiny Core variant that wgets debs from Debian repos and uses scripts to convert them into useable extensions. Most software converts, not all, guess why. Actually it's not just systemd. Sometimes kernel or driver, BusyBox or need for a special startup script. Regular Tiny Core and the Puppy Linux releases have the same issues. There's always a work around or alternative. Some software built in-house but most of the stuff that doesn't work don't want anyway.

Old-school Unix in many ways. Script driven, CLI managed, vi, no graphics with base install, less than one application per task. Setup Xorg and Fluxbox. Entire system uses ~170mb drive space. Booting to graphics uses i believe ~50mb RAM, presently using 67mb while running Dillo, emelfm and xterm.

Merry Christmas everyone, all the best non-systemd users.

Code: Select all
tc@box:~$ uname -a
Linux box 3.16.6-tinycore #1 SMP Mon Dec 22 13:08:25 UTC 2014 i686 GNU/Linux
tc@box:~$ version
dCore-jessie:2015.12.20.21.26
tc@box:~$ free -m
             total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
Mem:           500        124        375         34          1         55
-/+ buffers/cache:         67        432
Swap:          729          0        729
tc@box:~$ pstree
init-+-ash---startx---xinit-+-X
     |                      `-sh---fluxbox-+-ash---dillo---dpid---bookmarks.dpi
     |                                     |-ash---emelfm---emelfm
     |                                     `-ash---xterm---ash---pstree
     |-dbus-daemon
     |-udevd
     `-udhcpc
800mhz, 512mb ram, dCore-jessie (Tiny Core with Debian Jessie packages) with BusyBox and Fluxbox.
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2015-12-21 11:39

^ Hiya mardybear, thanks for the information -- I've never heard of dCore-jessie, it sounds fascinating :)

Here's my offering: OpenBSD running init(8)

This is from a just-booted xmonad/xmobar desktop with a single rxvt-unicode client window open:
Code: Select all
$ uname -a
OpenBSD xanadu.lan 5.8 GENERIC.MP#1757 amd64
$ top -d1
[...]
Memory: Real: 54M/234M act/tot Free: 7621M Cache: 78M Swap: 0K/4176M
[...]
$ pstree
-+= 00001 root /sbin/init
 |--= 23244 root dhclient: iwn0 [priv] (dhclient)
 |--= 19991 _dhcp dhclient: iwn0 (dhclient)
 |-+= 17141 root syslogd: [priv] (syslogd)
 | \--- 03291 _syslogd /usr/sbin/syslogd
 |-+= 00817 root pflogd: [priv] (pflogd)
 | \--- 19065 _pflogd pflogd: [running] -s 160 -i pflog0 -f /var/log/pflog (pflogd)
 |-+= 28427 root ntpd: [priv] (ntpd)
 | \-+- 13525 _ntp ntpd: ntp engine (ntpd)
 |   \--- 23971 _ntp ntpd: dns engine (ntpd)
 |-+= 26242 root smtpd: [priv] (smtpd)
 | |--- 01817 _smtpd smtpd: scheduler (smtpd)
 | |--- 12919 _smtpd smtpd: pony express (smtpd)
 | |--- 00339 _smtpq smtpd: queue (smtpd)
 | |--- 31184 _smtpd smtpd: control (smtpd)
 | |--- 01479 _smtpd smtpd: lookup (smtpd)
 | \--- 30591 _smtpd smtpd: klondike (smtpd)
 |--= 02331 _sndio /usr/bin/sndiod
 |--= 22429 _sndiop sndiod: helper (sndiod)
 |--= 08094 root /usr/sbin/apmd -A
 |--= 17075 root /usr/sbin/cron
 |-+- 23668 empty urxvtd -q -f -o
 | \-+= 21634 empty ksh
 |   \-+= 03194 empty pstree
 |     \-+- 12425 empty sh -c ps -kaxwwo user,pid,ppid,pgid,command
 |       \--- 07450 empty ps -kaxwwo user
 |-+= 04643 empty /bin/sh /usr/X11R6/bin/startx /usr/X11R6/bin/startx
 | \-+- 26931 empty xinit /usr/local/bin/xmonad -- /usr/X11R6/bin/X :0 -auth /home/empty/.serverauth.3PjE2Wi2VO
 |   |-+= 22605 empty /usr/X11R6/bin/X :0 -auth /home/empty/.serverauth.3PjE2Wi2VO (Xorg)
 |   | \--- 31030 root X: [priv] (Xorg)
 |   \-+= 11523 empty /home/empty/.xmonad/xmonad-x86_64-openbsd (xmonad-x86_64-op)
 |     |--= 29722 empty (sh)
 |     \-+= 16693 empty /bin/sh -c xmobar
 |       \--- 01651 empty xmobar
 |--= 25637 root /usr/libexec/getty std.9600 ttyC1
 |--= 03937 root /usr/libexec/getty std.9600 ttyC2
 |--= 10248 root /usr/libexec/getty std.9600 ttyC3
 \--= 08691 root /usr/libexec/getty std.9600 ttyC5

The pstree(1) output is a *lot* busier than my old bare-bones Arch system (with systemd as PID1) *shrugs*

EDIT: 54MiB used out of nearly 8GiB :lol:
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby MoaTib » 2015-12-21 19:16

mardybear wrote:Wow, old thread revived. Forum's so quiet now that most systemd haters left...no more drama.


[SOLVED]There is nothing we can do against all these herds of DedHat trolls.[/SOLVED]
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby weedeater64 » 2015-12-26 13:08

mardybear wrote:Wow, old thread revived. Forum's so quiet now that most systemd haters left...no more drama.


Yes, systemd_virus kiled Debian, or rather Debian committed suicide by shoving the virus down the users throats.

A damn shame.
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby edbarx » 2015-12-26 21:59

weedeater64 wrote:
mardybear wrote:Wow, old thread revived. Forum's so quiet now that most systemd haters left...no more drama.


Yes, systemd_virus kiled Debian, or rather Debian committed suicide by shoving the virus down the users throats.

A damn shame.

Debian is still alive and kicking... it is still open source allowing anyone to modify source to one's liking. The vast software repositories hosted by Debian, are a huge resource that can only be appreciated by all, including those who do not want to use systemd as the grandparent process of their system. Yes, it means more work for such users and developers, but Debian is not precluding anyone from using its repositories if one disagrees with systemd.

One only needs to have some patience, as there are alternatives that allow one to use Linux without having to have systemd. I am posting this from within Devuan 64 bit using iceweasel running under XFCE4.10.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby stevepusser » 2015-12-27 04:50

MX 15 Linux was just released under the wire to make it out in 2015. It boots up using sysvinit by default, but you can use systemd after the install just choosing that boot option under "advanced options" in GRUB. It's mostly Jessie-based with a backported and heavily customized xfce4 4.12, plus we attempt to keep a stable of other backported userspace applications and kernels available in our repo. Those aren't mandatory upgrades, though--the user can just stick with the Jessie versions if desired.
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby GarryRicketson » 2015-12-28 01:27

Thanks Steve, I downloaded the ISO, and am trying it, seems to work pretty well, but I don't like XFCE much, so I installed OpenBox,..everything went smoothly though.
Image
For a screen shot:
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9196&p=602795#p602795
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby Starborn » 2015-12-31 00:11

systemd or not - is that not nitpicking for "us, regular" users? I don't notice anything different between jessie and rebecca (the latter being Linux Mint).

What's with those init wars? I mean, c'mon.

And Linus Torvalds doesn't care much about it, and the only thing that really matters, is what he thinks about things, since he is the Creator of all, so. :P (just kidding here)
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby golinux » 2015-12-31 00:43

@dasein . . . Starborn's post cries for your terse, dry wit. I don't have the stomach to attempt to awaken those who hold utility superior to principles. Very short-sighted. Their error in judgment will of course be discovered when the curtain falls and what's behind is revealed. Only then will they realize that the joke is on them . . .
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby dasein » 2015-12-31 00:49

golinux wrote:@dasein . . . Starborn's post cries for your terse, dry wit.

You sure you don't have me confused with someone else? :razz:

(I mean... terse? Really?)

That said, since he did mischaracterize systemd as an "init system"...
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=120652
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby golinux » 2015-12-31 01:01

Your posts have tended to be rather terse lately. The good ol' one, two. bam, bam. That link was your masterpiece!
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby dasein » 2015-12-31 01:07

golinux wrote:Your posts have tended to be rather terse lately.

Have not. :mrgreen:
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby golinux » 2015-12-31 01:19

dasein wrote:
golinux wrote:Your posts have tended to be rather terse lately.

Have not. :mrgreen:

:P

Here's some more required reading for Starborn
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby spacex » 2015-12-31 02:50

Initially when I thought systemd was going to be just a init system, I was on board. Used it in Wheezy because the boot got faster, and the shutdown became instant. didn't think much more about it. To bad most of us didn't catch the real plot before it was to late.
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby Starborn » 2015-12-31 13:22

dasein wrote:That said, since he did mischaracterize systemd as an "init system"...
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=120652

@dasein,
I am not too proud to say here, in full public, that I am "utterly clueless".

I have only a faint idea of how exactly a Linux system works "under the hood", but just like only few people open the hood of their car to learn how exactly the engine works, I have never had the need to learn how Linux works (not with Ubuntu long ago, not with Linux Mint and - I expect - also not with Debian now).

If you find that wrong - why would it be? I am just a casual user, a hobbyist.

From what I have already read about systemd, I understand that it is indeed (?) more than an "initialising system" (?). Your message in that link explains it well enough. As does the link that golinux posted. Interesting to read. Thanks for having written it, back in February.

@dasein,
Do you still stand behind that February post?
Why?
For me, Debian-with-systemd works fine, except for a few pesky things (which probably have to do with that god-awful Gnome 3, and that seem not to want to stay away.). I see no difference between Linux Mint at my main desktop and Debian at this machine here. I am - as you called it - a casual user, a hobbyist, and I am not ashamed to say that.

sytemd is my new god? Well, luckily I am an atheist :D

Debian-with-systemd works fine, so I am okay with systemd.

In these "init wars", I am Swiss.
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