operating systems without systemd

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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby lukas » 2016-03-24 17:59

In the meantime (between starting this thread and today) i used
Gentoo for a while, ca 6 months and
Salix for a while, also ca 6 months
both are still installed.
Salix is more userfriendly, mainly package management, but both do the job fine (package management of gentoo is also easy, but each upgrade or installation takes quite some time, compared with binary distributions).
Since a couple of weeks i use
refracta
which now uses the devuan repositories.
As i know debian pretty well, it seems to be the most easy solution to me (not saying i won't go back to salix though).
The last one i sure got on my list is
dragora (with similar "problems" like gentoo, as it too is from source).

To make it short:
Anyone looking for a) systemd free and b) comfortable and user-friendly i would recomment Salix.
Last edited by lukas on 2016-03-24 20:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby HuangLao » 2016-03-24 19:44

lukas wrote:Anyone looking for a) systemd free and b) comfortable and user-friendly i would recomment Salix.


Big +1
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby oswaldkelso » 2016-03-24 19:55

lukas wrote:The last one i sure got on my list is
dragora (with similar "problems" like gentoo, as it too is from source).


"May the source be with you lukas".

Seriously though no need to install from source if you don't want to. You just have to ask and if it's in line with the core values someone will build it for you. We even have a package installer called jul and a web version on the way http://jul.gungre.ch/ If I want to install a package it's very apt like. jul sync. jul search. jul add. jul upgrade etc. Or If you want to build a missing package there are guides in the wiki and with not to much effort you can use modified Slackware build scripts. The Dragora creator was a Slackware user before so 2.2 is Slackware like but defiantly not Slackware.

Dragora 2.2 is old but after up dating some of the packages are very new, the small community strong and knowledgeable. I am easily the least knowledgeable user but was still made feel welcome because I put in effort and I see that with all visitors.. It's not a place for shiny-shiny but more stable, light and diverse.

We had great trouble trying to decide a default desktop/window manager for Dragora3 (D3) because everyone runs different ones and uses their computers in different ways. In the end we thought the thing to do was make it so users will get a basic install that they can easily make their own.
D3 will be out with lots of changes. Not just an upgrade more a rewrite with an alpha.iso soon, but soon may be the summer! If anyone else is a secret freetard and it sounds like their thing feel free to pop in to the #dragora irc channel on freenode and lurk. :mrgreen:

We are currently the only FSF GNU/Linux distro to be actively trying to remain systemd free.
Ash init durbatulûk, ash init gimbatul,
Ash init thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby lukas » 2016-03-24 21:04

Thanks for the detailed info.

Each of the distros i mentioned above have got some strong points, i didn't go that much into detail.
(most is well known anyway. With dragora not being on everyones list, while sure a distro which should be known by more people ).
After you gave the info the ones who are looking for something like dragora will hopefully give it a try
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby xinu » 2016-03-25 02:55

gentoo SUCKS ! period !! next !!!
May the FORK be with you!

i puke slackware ! !
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby xinu » 2016-03-25 03:00

May the FORK be with you!

i puke slackware ! !
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby xinu » 2016-03-29 13:27

May the FORK be with you!

i puke slackware ! !
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Modify debootstrap/vmdebootstrap

Postby capricorny » 2016-03-29 16:30

Being what it is, Debian should always try to be as agnostic as possible wrt. (essentially) user space solutions: If someone tries to tell you there has got to be a permanent space inserted between kernel space and userspace, methinks they lie, and more profoundly with every year. Even an engaged supporter of systemd should have supported Ian Jackson's call for init process agnosticism, because that is best for us all in the long run. - Let the bad alternatives lose in an open competition, don't force anything that doesn't have to be forced - and in particular not when it is controversial.

Personally, I am completely sure that Debian will return to init agnosticism - and sooner rather than later.

Being a Linux user since the early 90es, I have never been especially fond of the old init process, and I have never been counted among the "friends of sysvinit" (whoever that might be). So I was initially quite positive towards systemd as an improvement over sysvinit, but then the strong drive towards being much more than that made me skeptical.

The Linux kernel has become ever more competent, and adding what is basically a new administrative layer setting many of the rules of the shop can't be the most efficient (nor the safest) way of putting that competence to work. In particular, any attempts at taking over userspace permanently should be stopped, because that will block new development. On the other hand, an important part of the Debian freedom is to allow such takeovers to happen when the involved parties agree on it. - And for desktop users (and some of their dedicated software), that may be a good solution. In the same way as the Android Linux lockdown has proved OK for smartphone use - as one particular solution for such devices. It is also extremely important to experiment with others, as is done in the Tizen project, among others. Linux monoculture isn't culture at all, it is blatant lack of it.

And after weeks of rather intense work with Debian 8.3, I have become convinced that the systemd-only-proponents aren't just wrong in principle, they are practically incompetent too. Not to produce a seemingly well-functioning OS version, for that's not terribly hard. But to produce a really robust one. To me it seems that robustness-wise, Debian 8.3 is easily the worst Linux version I have ever put through the paces. (There has been a lot of them.) And I get more and more convinced that this is about architecture, not bugs. It should be a no-brainer that the folks introducing such technology should prove, as far as possible, that it functions correctly, and I think it tells something about the whole project that I haven't seen one serious attempt at that so far. And please, don't come with your sysvinit criticism - I think I can do that at least as good myself.

What I think needs be done, apart from Devuan and all the other efforts mentioned here, is going into the build process itself. Fork debootstrap/vmdebootstrap. So we can have the tools for building Debian versions with the degree of agnosticism we want or need. How impertinent that may seem, it can't possibly be worse than what happened to the live-build a few months ago, and now it has become necessary.
Last edited by capricorny on 2016-03-29 18:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby alderaan » 2016-03-29 18:25

I don't think it is already mentioned but I am not sure (so many pages!): Void Linux

Void is a general purpose operating system, based on the monolithic Linux® kernel. Its package system allows you to quickly install, update and remove software; software is provided in binary packages or can be built directly from sources with the help of the XBPS source packages collection.


We use runit as the init system and service supervisor.


Some links:
http://www.voidlinux.eu/
http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=void
https://github.com/voidlinux/void-runit
http://www.cupoflinux.com/SBB/index.php?topic=2300.0
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Void_Linux
https://blog.paranoidpenguin.net/tag/void-linux/
https://wiki.voidlinux.eu/Main_Page
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions ... 175551906/
https://thelinuxexperiment.com/enter-th ... oid-linux/
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby xinu » 2016-04-01 01:40

May the FORK be with you!

i puke slackware ! !
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby stevepusser » 2016-04-01 18:43

xinu wrote:http://www.mepis.org/

:idea:


MEPIS died a few years ago--the repositories are gone, too. You may want to look at AntiX/MX Linux for a successor instead.
MX Linux packager and developer
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby xinu » 2016-04-24 12:42

May the FORK be with you!

i puke slackware ! !
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby lukas » 2016-04-24 15:13


already mentioned in the OP. Nothing new here.
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2016-04-24 21:46

Alpine Linux was already mentioned on page 16 (!) but I think it's worth repeating.

http://alpinelinux.org/about/

Boots with busybox as PID1 (/sbin/init) using OpenRC-style scripts, offers an inbuilt pinning system to install new software on a stable base and has a stable release every six months or so.

It is a superb distribution, more KISS than Arch and very simple to set up and use with no nasty GUIs (the distribution is designed for embedded devices, routers, &c).

Code: Select all
empty@alpine ~ % rc-status
Runlevel: default
 openntpd                                                                    [  started  ]
 cron                                                                        [  started  ]
 acpid                                                                       [  started  ]
 udev-postmount                                                              [  started  ]
Dynamic Runlevel: hotplugged
Dynamic Runlevel: needed/wanted
 sysfs                                                                       [  started  ]
 fsck                                                                        [  started  ]
 root                                                                        [  started  ]
 localmount                                                                  [  started  ]
 klogd                                                                       [  started  ]
 dbus                                                                        [  started  ]
Dynamic Runlevel: manual

:)
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby lukas » 2016-04-25 08:18

in the OP i was looking for a (more or less) complete list.
Might be an idea to start the thread again, going thru this thread and creating a (more or less) complete list.

Not much fun going through a dozen of pages to find the according distros ...
This way that way: i am quite happy to see there are quite some options.

PS: assuming i understood IRC-chat correct, devuan is pretty close now.
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