Sorry, i Love FrankenDebian

[lukas]

Maybe a "frankendebian" is ok if all you want is a toy to play with.
It could even be educational to some extent, all though learning to build a system that is stable and dependable would be more educational , learning to do things correctly and the right way, is better.
For computers that are being used to do work and in a business, a toy like "frankendebian" that is unreliable has no place.

that

[Danielsan]

I have never used a Debian stable, always FrankenDebian based on Testing with pinning on Sid, Experimental and Debian Multimedi!
However recently I am evaluating that basing a distro on Testing is pretty useless especially if you are using open source video driver so I am thinking to move directly on SID!

[pendrachken]

Maybe a "frankendebian" is ok if all you want is a toy to play with.
It could even be educational to some extent, all though learning to build a system that is stable and dependable would be more educational , learning to do things correctly and the right way, is better.
For computers that are being used to do work and in a business, a toy like "frankendebian" that is unreliable has no place.

My system was stable for ~9-10 years, through three stable upgrades, right up until the HDD died and I figured it was easier to freshen everything up with a clean install rather than de-cruft a backup image on a new drive... Some "toy" eh? Oh wait, I could do actual video encoding / editing work, and had up to date software on a stable base system for YEARS before backports was even a dream.

Also, who advocated this for general purpose production systems? Maybe, MAYBE, someone doing build targets would use this in production... but it would be for easier and wiser just to target testing for the next release if you want to build against the next stable. Some drone doing grunt work, not dev / video / work in fields that rapidly advance, won't need updated software very often, meaning that the now 2 year release cycle won't really matter either. So no reason to use newer software on those systems.
And anyone who uses anything but stable software on a production server should be shot, trampled, and dragged out back to be set on fire. production server should NEVER have administrators that have " Ohhhh new shiny" syndrome for everything.

Everything must be balanced for production uptime VS. production and development needs. If your environment NEEDS to be updated then have someone who knows what they are doing update it so it doesn't fall into a steaming pile of mess. If you don't NEED to run anything later than stable software DON'T RUN anything later than the stable release.

[spacex]

Heck, it's as easy as this. The people being safe in Linux, are being safe everywhere else. In all aspects of life. You'll never get to see them skydiving. Not even breaking the speed limits. And the worst thing is that they actually brag about being so obediant. Go figure

[Innovate]

What about those make distro based distro on Debian Testing/Sid?
Are they all making FrankenDebian?

[fred barclay]

Heck, it's as easy as this. The people being safe in Linux, are being safe everywhere else. In all aspects of life. You'll never get to see them skydiving. Not even breaking the speed limits. And the worst thing is that they actually brag about being so obediant. Go figure

I don't mix repos, exceed the speed limit regularly and have probably jumped out of more perfectly good airplanes than you have

Oh, come on! No rock climbing? For shame!

To the OP: I generally play it safe on Debian, but I do occasionally grab some packages (like gpredict) from Testing that I know won't mess up my machine.
I generally stick to backports for newer packages, though, like libreoffice and my kernel. Or I just use a 3-year-old package...

What about those make distro based distro on Debian Testing/Sid?
Are they all making FrankenDebian?

Nope. They're not Debian at all

Bingo!

[spacex]

The whole purpose of apt-pinning, is to mix sources. Why provide the tools to do it responsibly, and at the same time tell people not to do it all?

[stevepusser]

Because we get those same people here on the forums asking for help when they don't/won't/RTFM about those same tools?

We're reacting to them breaking their systems and asking what happened; we don't call them up at home and claim to be Bob Smith from Debian Technical Support, and that our monitoring tools have detected mixed repositories on their boxes. People that know how to use those tools are not starting threads about that here.

Patient: "Doctor, it hurts when I do this!"
(Tries to bend over backwards at 180 degrees)

Doctor: "Then don't do that!"

Patient: "But I saw this guy at the circus do it! Why can't I?"

Doctor: (－‸ლ)

[mor]

The whole purpose of apt-pinning, is to mix sources. Why provide the tools to do it responsibly, and at the same time tell people not to do it all?

Because we get those same people here on the forums asking for help when they don't/won't/RTFM about those same tools?

It is funny how you (I mean spacex) don't seem to get that the greatest majority of those who end up running Testing/Unstable are not motivated by your same interest in exciting new situations where you can learn and tinker.
Most are just either completely clueless about what they are doing (exactly because of those who, like you, tell them "come on, it's cool and easy!"), or are motivated by gross misconceptions about how the Debian brand doesn't magically bestows the same dependability of Stable upon Testing/Unstable with newer software and/or by the sense of self entitlement they get by running a supposedly more advanced system.
And to say we talked at lengths about it and I believed we ended up more or less on the same page about how to present development branches to users in public discussions.
I mean, I really thought you agreed with me on this.
Still, you seem not to lose any chance to speck of Testing and Unstable as perfectly viable options for any user. At this point I don't know if you are deluded into thinking that most users wish to tinker with computers instead of just doing some work, or if you are deliberately luring people into something they do not want.

It is also funny to see how you were so passionate about defending Jamie Zawinski (the author of Xscreensaver, for those who don't know) on the ground of him being overwhelmed by tons of bug reports because of the outdated versions on Stable, yet you seem not to care or understand that people running development branches willy-nilly also produce tons of support request (what Steve was saying) and end up having a bad experience with Debian, and more tragically keep increasing the misunderstandings and misconceptions about what Debian is.

Finally, I wonder how old you are (don't tell me, it's rhetorical) because all the analogies (that you also made in other occasions) about taking risks and being generally adventurous in life make me think of when we're teenagers and believe to know everything about something based on our own specific personal experience.
Leave psychology and behavior analysis to those who know a thing or two about it.

Bye

[spacex]

Steve & mor

Get real guys. If it weren't for pasients like that, there wouldn't be a need for any doctors, and we like to be doctors. That's why we hang here in the first place. And to have fun....

Besides, it's always a little fun to tease a few by opposing the conservative nature of Debian,and some of the most conservative users. Everyone is here by free will, and supporting people by free will. It puzzles me to see that someone thinks that this entitles them to tell other people what to do, or not to do. If users are irresponsible and break/bork their Debian systems, why the heck do you at all care? If you don't want to help them, then don't. Easy as that really. No need to feel entitled to educate people who hasn't asked to be educated. It's almost like you people think it's immoral to do anything bad to a Debian install

I'm not at all disagreeing with what you guys think is that safest and most responsible way to do things. After all, you are correct. If someone must have newer packakes, it's best to backport them. If they don't need anything newer, then stay on stable. Yada yada yada, it's correct. That's the safest way. But why the heck do you care if people are following this? Nobody is forcing anyone to support anyone.

To put it in another way. It's stupid to smoke, but the worst kind of people I know, is the ones that tells others to stop smoking. Or vouch for rules and regulations that makes it difficult. Everyone should mind their own business, and let other people do whatever they want to. Even when they are making the "wrong" choices. It isn't our business. Don't lecture people who haven't asked to be lectured. Easy as that really

Finally, unlike you, I don't think it's in my place to tell people what they really want. That has to be their choice, educated or not

[HuangLao]

I've been following this interesting thread, sometimes with great laughter and other times with omg, did they really just say that.

I think (IMO) it is fairly simple. Debian is designed to be a repository of stable packages that have been vetted and tested to work well, together and individually and not to cause too much trouble. People are free to use Debian how they want, full modern DE, medium weight DE, minimalist WM and ultra minimalist CLI without X (hey who needs X, you X users are bloated). Now with that freedom also comes the ability to tinker, play with testing and sid and even (God forbid) add non Debian repos, create your own repos, take packages from other Distros and convert to deb etc... Keep in mind, however, that if you venture down paths that are less well known, less travelled, that you will probably be left alone to pick up those pieces. If you are this type of person, then back up often, keep a handy install CD close by and have fun, maybe try your adventurous moves in Virtualbox first then update your box when safe.

Just some thoughts.....The freedom in Debian also includes the freedom to take risks and screw up....sometimes thats when people learn the most as well.

[dasein]

Just a quick note for the benefit of those who are linguistically challenged...

A system that intermingles Testing with Unstable/Experimental is not a "FrankenDebian." The correct term for such a configuration is a "mixed system." The risks of running such a system are palpable but relatively minimal. There are several existing threads that talk about the care and feeding of mixed systems.

Mixing Stable with <something else> is where the trainwreck happens, and has resulted in dozens if not hundreds of pointless posts asking for help, thousands of wasted hours, and countless re-installs.

The testimony of a single individual is not data. A much more representative sample of the risks of mixing releases is available here.

[MALsPa]

Don't lecture people who haven't asked to be lectured.

+1

[bester69]

Steve & mor

Get real guys. If it weren't for pasients like that, there wouldn't be a need for any doctors, and we like to be doctors. That's why we hang here in the first place. And to have fun....

Besides, it's always a little fun to tease a few by opposing the conservative nature of Debian,and some of the most conservative users. Everyone is here by free will, and supporting people by free will. It puzzles me to see that someone thinks that this entitles them to tell other people what to do, or not to do. If users are irresponsible and break/bork their Debian systems, why the heck do you at all care? If you don't want to help them, then don't. Easy as that really. No need to feel entitled to educate people who hasn't asked to be educated. It's almost like you people think it's immoral to do anything bad to a Debian install

I'm not at all disagreeing with what you guys think is that safest and most responsible way to do things. After all, you are correct. If someone must have newer packakes, it's best to backport them. If they don't need anything newer, then stay on stable. Yada yada yada, it's correct. That's the safest way. But why the heck do you care if people are following this? Nobody is forcing anyone to support anyone.

To put it in another way. It's stupid to smoke, but the worst kind of people I know, is the ones that tells others to stop smoking. Or vouch for rules and regulations that makes it difficult. Everyone should mind their own business, and let other people do whatever they want to. Even when they are making the "wrong" choices. It isn't our business. Don't lecture people who haven't asked to be lectured. Easy as that really

Finally, unlike you, I don't think it's in my place to tell people what they really want. That has to be their choice, educated or not

I support this,i find in Spacex coments always much sense and friendly acctitude,

keep like that, im a follower yours

[stevepusser]

Don't lecture people who haven't asked to be lectured.

+1

So can we refer all the people that have mangled their systems by not being "stuffy and staid" to you and spacex for help?

[MALsPa]

Don't lecture people who haven't asked to be lectured.

+1

So can we refer all the people that have mangled their systems by not being "stuffy and staid" to you and spacex for help?

Lol. Why not? I've got no problem with providing links like these:

https://www.debian.org/doc/
https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debi ... ms.en.html

[mor]

Steve & mor

Get real guys. If it weren't for pasients like that, there wouldn't be a need for any doctors, and we like to be doctors. That's why we hang here in the first place. And to have fun....

Interesting analogy…


It is easy to dismiss what I'm saying by making it look like I'm dictating behavior and telling people what they should do and how as if I was some religious freak wanting to rule on people's sex lives. You can fill your mouth with appeals to ever popular sayings like "live and let live" and "don't tell people what to do", but that's not fair and you know it.

It is not like I'm coming over to your table in a restaurant and interject a discussion with your friends by telling you what you or they should do.
You like hospital analogies so think that this place is not like a restaurant or a public park where you hang out with your friends and have "a little fun to tease a few by opposing the conservative nature of Debian" but rather a hospital or medical facility of some kind where people go to either help or seek help.
And inside a hospital it is not out of place to inform people about what's unhealthy or dangerous (like smoking) or whether one should play contact sports or avoid it based on stuff like age, previous injuries etc.
Granted, I'm not a real doctor (or expert in the analogy), therefore my entitlement in saying what's good and bad for the patients is moot, but by its nature this "hospital" is based on "voluntary doctoring" and the trustworthiness of what everyone says can only be assessed by how many other "doctors" agree or disagree with the diagnosis/treatment. When someone says something debatable or wrong, somebody else (hopefully) chimes in.

You are here more as a doctor than a patient, as am I, therefore we both check on what we say to patients coming in with all sorts of illnesses and injuries and if I see that you are saying that "smoking is ok, go ahead and try" I feel it is my duty to inform the patient that smoking is also unhealthy, and also on the side ask you to refrain from being that reckless with patients.

The stuff you write is read by people who have no idea about your desire to kid around with the conservatism in Debian, and I can't follow your every post with my warning label where I inform users about the risks of what you depict as a funny adventure. That's why I ask you (not tell you!) to think about the impact of what you say when you talk about development branches.

Yes, we also do hang out here as if it was a park or a restaurant with friends and we **** around (and I praise that, because I'm here for that reason too), but even if it sounds so grave and self-righteous we also have a responsibility as users who, to many different degrees, possess knowledge and experience about Debian and GNU/Linux based operating systems in general.
That's why I care and why I would imagine you should to.

It is not about telling people what they should do: if anyone wants to smoke they should, absolutely. It is about not assuming that they want to start smoking and that they wouldn't mind all the risks associated with the practice. It is about explaining them what smoking is and does and presenting them with all the data about the risks, then it is their choice.

If the hospital analogy is a little stretched since after all we're not dealing with health and life or death, those who use computers in their everyday life are mostly just people who need their internet ready and their photo collections sorted, who need their servers running, data sheets operative and their general files safe.
They don't need the thrill of a high-maintenance systems that has the latest software (which is not the case even with Unstable), they just need the thing to work and if the Stable solution isn't updated enough for their tastes, then for the hundredth time, there are other solutions out there, and you don't need to lure clueless people into using Testing/Unstable in order to have Debian high quarters to change their philosophy and start producing a less conservative distro.

As I told you several times, I don't mind your critique of Debian's conservative nature, but your (and that of many like you) impact is only detrimental and only to clueless users who will get into development territory for all the wrong reasons, and they won't get helped because unlike a real hospital where doctors are bound by their Hippocratic Oath and would treat anyone even with self inflicted wounds and self procured illnesses, this is sadly a place where no such oath exists and Testing/Unstable users are on their own (because being a developmental user means wanting the challenge), as you know being one.

I thought you were the one that acted upon a supposedly higher moral code. How is what you are doing commendable?
What you are doing in fact is not telling people that smoking a cigarette or two is probably not gonna give them cancer, you are suggesting that if their non smoking life is boring they should start and have fun with it.
And you are not doing that in the privacy of your own home with your closest friends, you are doing it in public, and dare I say from a position of some authority, being a perfectly respectable (as opposed to obvious idiots and trolls) user with 600+ posts on the (un)official Debian forum.
Moreover you are accusing me to dictate behavior when all I'm saying is "hey, smoking is not just fun, is also dangerous, and your boredom may be a symptom of other needs rather than that for smoke".

Who needs to get real?

Bye

[MALsPa]

The OP quoted the "Don't make a FrankenDebian" info from the wiki, and posted a link to that. I'd think that even the most clueless new user would see that and realize that doing something of that nature is probably not such a good idea. For those who still don't get it:

DontBreakDebian

If someone decides to do what the OP does and ends up screwing up their system and comes running here for help, it shouldn't be necessary for forum members to do anything more than reply with a link to that article.

[edbarx]

If a chemical, whatever its form, seriously interferes with cell metabolism, it is defined as a poison. What installing incompatible libraries, also known as, using incompatible repositories, should be called?

I dare say, one may have some rare mutation that allows one to take a poison without dying, but is it intelligent to do so?

[dasein]

Purely pedantic point: the forums already contains over 10,000 links to the "Don't Break Debian" Wiki page.

Maybe something more along the lines of: Hosed your system? click here for help!