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It is better to avoid Windows-specific Hardware

Off-Topic discussions about science, technology, and non Debian specific topics.
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GarryRicketson
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It is better to avoid Windows-specific Hardware

#1 Post by GarryRicketson »

Written some time ago, about 1996
But I still believe the same principles apply,..even if most people don't
From: Installing Debian Linux 1.1 from Floppy Disk
About Copyrights and Software Licenses
Windows-specific Hardware

A disturbing trend is the proliferation of Windows modems and printers. In
some cases these are specially designed to be operated by the Microsoft
Windows operating system and bear the legend Made expecially for
Windows-based computers. This is generally done by removing the embedded
processors of the hardware and shifting the work they do over to a Windows
driver that is run by your computer's main CPU. This strategy makes the
hardware less expensive, but the savings are often not passed on to the user
and this hardware may even be more expensive than equivalent devices that
retain their embedded intellegence.
a
You should avoid windows-specific hardware for two reasons. The first is
that the manufacturers do not generally make the resources available to
write a Linux driver. Generally, the hardware and software interface to the
device is proprietary, and documentation is not available without a
non-disclosure agreement, if it is available at all. This precludes its
being used for free software, since free software writers disclose the
source code of their programs. The second reason is that when devices like
these have had their embedded processors removed, the operating system must
perform the work of the embedded processors, often at real-time priority,
and thus the CPU is not available to run your programs while it is driving
these devices. Since the typical Windows user does not multi-process as
intensively as a Linux user, the manufacturers hope that the Windows user
simply won't notice the burden this hardware places on their CPU. However,
any multi-processing operating system, even Windows 95 or NT, is degraded
when peripheral manufacturers skimp on the embedded processing power of
their hardware.

You can help this situation by encouraging these manufacturers to release
the documentation and other resources necessary for us to program their
hardware, but the best strategy is simply to avoid this sort of hardware.---snip--
The last update of this document was made on Wed May 29 14:39:41 PDT 1996

Copyright of This Document

Copyright 1996 Bruce Perens. This document may be distributed under the
terms of the GNU General Public License.
Things have changed a lot since then, but after all said and done,
I try to avoid anything from Microsoft, not just hardware that depends on their products,
but any software and programs from them.

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edbarx
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Re: It is better to avoid Windows-specific Hardware

#2 Post by edbarx »

The quote talks about win-modems which lacked a processing unit and were used for dial up internet connections. My recent purchase is somewhat different: HP do provide a Linux BIOS but its version is quite dated compared with what they provide for Windows. This, however, does not mean that every HP computer running MS Windows will succeed to install the latest BIOS. As you know, sometimes the latest version of Windows are prevented from being installed for commercial reasons.

My current problem has to do with Intel's hardware who do provide an open source driver. But their driver is broken in many aspects. In fact, there are several outstanding bug reports.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.

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pylkko
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Microsoft signature

#3 Post by pylkko »

The latest issue appears to be that some new laptops are now coming out with SSD configurations apparently deliberately designed so that only Windows can run on them. This is called Microsoft signature edition and is marketed as hardware that runs Windows 10 really well. However, it appears that the only reason why linux could not run on these is because the firmware is patched so as to have no AHCI mode, then modified code to make it impossible to set AHCI mode with an EFI variable using EFI shell. Only a proprietary RAID mode driver (for single drive) exists.

see:
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments ... ogram_now/

https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2337719

In this second thread a response post from Lenovo says "the PC is signature edition and is therefore locked as per out agreement with Microsoft".

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edbarx
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Re: It is better to avoid Windows-specific Hardware

#4 Post by edbarx »

I didn't buy a Lenovo laptop. I am also typing this reply from within a devuanised Debian Jessie installation. Needless to say, it means, this laptop is not locked in any way. In fact, I am booting in EFI mode, obviously wihout the hassle of secure boot as that requires far more steps on my part to make my Linux installation boot. I specifically chose to use EFI without Legacy Boot as that seems to be the simplest way I can get.

My problem is due to the way Linux handles Intel HD Graphics 4000. Linux assumes the settings saved in EFI are correct, notwithstanding it is known, more often than not, MS Windows ignores them. Since Windows is used on the vast majority of personal computers including laptops, assuming EFI to hold correct settings, is an leap into the dark. Why wouldn't i915 developers allow their driver to adapt when these variables are incorrect. Telling users in /var/log/kern.log that their driver is incorrectly configured and pipe underruns will occur, does not help users who have no idea what it involves to write a driver.

Here, we are talking about Intel who are considered Linux friendly and who write open drivers.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.

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pylkko
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Re: It is better to avoid Windows-specific Hardware

#5 Post by pylkko »

It was just in the news today that Lenovo have apparently made an official statement. I think that this means that their view is that earlier statements about certain laptops being Windows only were made by individuals and that these are not the companies policy. Nevertheless, what they did seems to be in stark contrast with what they are saying as was pointed in the reddit


http://fossforce.com/2016/09/surprise-m ... o-laptops/

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edbarx
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Re: It is better to avoid Windows-specific Hardware

#6 Post by edbarx »

This is the same all over the world struggle. Private companies/corporations are set up for financial gain, implying, they will do everything in their power to stifle their competitors. GNU/Linux being among their many "unwelcome" competitors, is treated in no different way.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
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Re: It is better to avoid Windows-specific Hardware

#8 Post by Bulkley »

edbarx wrote:This is the same all over the world struggle. Private companies/corporations are set up for financial gain, implying, they will do everything in their power to stifle their competitors. GNU/Linux being among their many "unwelcome" competitors, is treated in no different way.
It really is an issue for small users. If Boing or NASA need it, Intel will comply; simple as that. If you or I need it we will wait until a monster company such as Boing or NASA demands. We get the leftovers.

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Re: It is better to avoid Windows-specific Hardware

#9 Post by stevepusser »

Wow. That really seems to volate antitrust laws, but I guess MS thinks they can get away with it, or that the costs down the line will be less than their benefit. It would be the same as making your car only accept a certain kind of patented filling nozzle that only one company has a license to use. People would vote with their pocketbook in that case, but us FOSS users are a tiny minority.

Edit: actually read those articles--not MS's fault, just more crappy Lenovo.
MX Linux packager and developer

Innovate
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Re: It is better to avoid Windows-specific Hardware

#10 Post by Innovate »

I'm with Asus, Gigabyte, Msi motherboard there're no way these PC motherboard stab my back.
Even on Laptop I'll stick to Asus, Msi there're less chance for me to get the Windows-specific Hardware.

I've already stay away from samsung if Lenovo want to add themselves to my blacklist that just fine by me.
I use to doubt about Lenovo's quality is it reliable than samsung now Lenovo gave me clear answer.
I found some other interest information about the culprit
http://www.pcworld.com/article/3123075/ ... osoft.html
Last edited by Innovate on 2016-09-25 08:23, edited 1 time in total.

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HuangLao
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Re: It is better to avoid Windows-specific Hardware

#11 Post by HuangLao »

could always build your own rig, its a fun experience, also gives you the skills when stuff breaks.

or buy computers designed for FOSS, never used these but heard great reviews:
https://system76.com/

https://www.thinkpenguin.com/

Personally, I like the build your own method or buy off lease business pc's.
if you are in the US, Mexico or Canada then www.tigerdirect.com is a great resource. http://www.tigerdirect.com/sectors/help ... tional.asp

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Re: It is better to avoid Windows-specific Hardware

#12 Post by edbarx »

Oh, why would anyone suggest system76?! :shock:

I remember a few years ago I was suggested to buy from system76, but when I checked their price for a 17.3 inch laptop, I was left speechless.... What $4000 for a laptop? After that shock, I posted on linuxquestions.org and was suggested to never buy from such vendors. The reason I was given was expected, I as told not to spend twice for hardware that you can get 50% cheaper.

As I said for the umpteenth time, this last laptop that I purchased only has one glitch that is preventing my satisfaction with it from being complete: it is the INFAMOUS INTEL i915 DRIVER. I was already bitten by Intel GPUs when for a whole year, my previous laptop couldn't start with the screen's backlight on rendering it useless. However, some good soul, excuse me for using a metaphor from the past, posted a workaround that was enough for me.

What I need now, is to somehow make the AGAIN DAMNED INTEL i915 PSEUDO DRIVER to use 3D acceleration instead of refusing for some reason unknown to me.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.

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