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about the RAM machines take [CLOSED]

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qyron
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about the RAM machines take [CLOSED]

#1 Post by qyron »

most probably off topic, but please bare with me. I really need a sane reply on this.

I was recently talking with a friend that commented he had been forced to let go two 4GB DDR3 1333MHz because he was about to upgrade to a brand new computer and the memory would not be compatible.

At this point, no alarm bells sounded: with new motherboards coming into the market and the increasing clock speeds of RAM, there's nothing wrong with this.

Next he tells me he his going to build a media centre from another computer he has laying around and complains the only thing bothering him is having to purchase more memory to it, because the machine is strapped for it and is barely coping with the SO demands. After I ask what's "under the hood", I get a fairly similar configuration to that I have in my box: an AMD workhorse, with 2GB of memory and a medium size HDD. The motherboard is even a 78 series chipset like mine, so I suggest moving the RAM he had from the old out-of-commission machine, because it would most probably be compatible.

After a stare, I get mauled with a confusing argument about RAM chips being built toward CPU brand and because the other computer ran an Intel CPU and the soon-to-be media centre was an AMD, memory chips would not be interchangeable

I'm not an hardware specialist but never before I heard such thing. I've been assembling my own computer for over 10 years and the only thing important to know is what type of memory the motherboard takes and the brands the vendor recommends. Am I wrong in anything? Have I been in a coma and something really that stupid happened?
Last edited by qyron on 2016-11-11 10:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: about the RAM machines take

#2 Post by bw123 »

I really need a sane reply on this.
Okay, I can't help with sanity, but here's what I've noticed:

You always need at least one RAM module to provide memory.
The amount of memory contained on modules keeps increasing, along with memory requirements for OS and applications.
The speed of the chip(s) on the modules keeps increasing, because the CPU claims it can address memory faster.
The size of the slot that modules are inserted into keeps changing
The reason is, there's no way to make them compatible, because newer cpus need a different size.
The computer is said to be faster, better, whatever.

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Re: about the RAM machines take

#3 Post by qyron »

bw123 wrote:Okay, I can't help with sanity(...).
Maybe I was aiming too high. :D

I understand all you have just stated. That's computer hardware 101, in my experience. But I was never told AMD motherboards require specific memories which in turn are not compatible with Intel motherboards, even if the motherboard use the exact same type of RAM.
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Re: about the RAM machines take

#4 Post by v&n »

qyron wrote:
bw123 wrote:But I was never told AMD motherboards require specific memories which in turn are not compatible with Intel motherboards, even if the motherboard use the exact same type of RAM.
I've been building both type of computers (AMD / Intel) and have never had any problems swapping RAM modules between them as long as the module frequency was supported by the board. AMD M68/78 chipsets accept the same DDR3 modules as the Intel boards, this is all I know and have experienced.

I have two Intel i7 2nd, 3rd gen processor based systems in my office with H67, H77 based motherboards, both use the same RAM modules that I have used numerous times in other AMD based systems having Gigabyte M68 / Asus M78 motherboards. RAM modules are entry level Kingston/Corsair 1333 MHz modules. Never had a crash or otherwise unusual behaviour on any of these systems. What you suspect, if true, would be one of the biggest revelations for me in my professional career so far.

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Re: about the RAM machines take

#5 Post by qyron »

It would, I believe.

I was at a complete loss when I was confronted with such an argument. RAM memory depends on the motherboard requirements to be compatible not CPU manufacturer to the extent of my knowledge. I've heard some manufacturers use special purpose-built components to lock out third party vendors (Dell being one of them) but I never came across with such type of machine to verify the claim.

The thought of getting one of such "brand-locked" chips is starting to cross my mind. I have an Intel based machine as a side machine for my kids to play, so I think I'll put it to test eventually.
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Re: about the RAM machines take

#6 Post by v&n »

qyron wrote:I've heard some manufacturers use special purpose-built components to lock out third party vendors (Dell being one of them).
That is an entirely different matter.

I know (actually *believe*, based on what I've read from 'unauthentic' sources, backed by some of my practical experiences) Lenovo does such kind of 'Whitelisting' where it won't support any brand other than what it has included in its 'whitelist' (burnt within the board's rom/firmware). I keep reading forum posts reporting similar issues on some of the HP, Dell and even some Asus models. Can't say which other brands are imposing such restrictions on their hardware.

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Re: about the RAM machines take

#7 Post by Thorny »

qyron wrote: I was recently talking with a friend that commented he had been forced to let go two 4GB DDR3 1333MHz because he was about to upgrade to a brand new computer and the memory would not be compatible.
I can think of at least one scenario where this could be correct. "Desktop" memory often comes in a different physical package "size" than "Laptop" memory (different length, so different slot size). The lines can be blurred a bit because these days some of the small form factor boxes have been designed to use laptop memory even though they are desktop systems and often people choose those small form factor boxes for media servers because they use less power and have a small footprint. So, the specs of type, and clock speed could be the same but but the slot size would be different.

Otherwise, it seems you basically understand things correctly. Note: I haven't seen or heard of the brand locking you mention it isn't true of my Dell but it is and old one and I suppose what you mention is possible. However, I think it would be a marketing mistake for a company to do it but of course they won't ask me. Poster v&n in is probably correct about the "whitelist", I don't have any very recent hardware.

That being said, there is also a "latency" factor and I have seen a system that wouldn't run memory unless it had a low enough latency. CAS latency, usually shown as "CL" in the specs. In the past I had an IBM brand that would not run unless the latency was low enough. As well, there is low power 1.3v memory and 1.5v memory. So a system that will tolerate high latency would probably run low latency RAM but not the other way around and a system that needs 1.3 volts might run with 1.5 but one that needs 1.5 probably wouldn't run well or at all with only 1.3.

For a "sane" answer I usually go to a reputable site like Crucial to check, where you can input system model number or MB model number and see the recommend memory specs.

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Re: about the RAM machines take

#8 Post by qyron »

Thorny wrote: I can think of at least one scenario where this could be correct. "Desktop" memory often comes in a different physical package "size" than "Laptop" memory (different length, so different slot size). The lines can be blurred a bit because these days some of the small form factor boxes have been designed to use laptop memory even though they are desktop systems and often people choose those small form factor boxes for media servers because they use less power and have a small footprint. So, the specs of type, and clock speed could be the same but but the slot size would be different. Otherwise, it seems you basically understand things correctly.
Yes, that is a reasonable assumption but that's not the case. The chips should be compatible because there's no form factor getting in the way and the motherboard that would be receiving the mentioned 2x4GB DDR3 1333 is a "standard" mATX. It's an entry level ASUS, a M5A78x-xx something.
The media centre is just an old refurbished desktop, so no constriction in terms of case for the hardware inside.
Thorny wrote: Note: I haven't seen or heard of the brand locking you mention it isn't true of my Dell but it is and old one and I suppose what you mention is possible. However, I think it would be a marketing mistake for a company to do it but of course they won't ask me. Poster v&n in is probably correct about the "whitelist", I don't have any very recent hardware.
I don't have any first hand reliable information concerning this but I've heard a few comments stating that some brands will use specific in-house hardware design in order to lock out third party vendors. I used to work with a senior tech expert and he had a lot of experience under his belt but for me seeing is believing, so I can't personally vouch for it to be true or not.

Regarding firmware or other methods of achieving the same results... I've seen Kingston memory chips being checked and putting out a different manufacturer name. Corsair the same. I can believe some degree of memory vendors being put in act to guarantee business relations but when a hand full of foundries make 90% of the components... Human error is prone to happen and Murphy's Law is self enforcing.

Thorny wrote: That being said, there is also a "latency" factor and I have seen a system that wouldn't run memory unless it had a low enough latency. CAS latency, usually shown as "CL" in the specs. In the past I had an IBM brand that would not run unless the latency was low enough. As well, there is low power 1.3v memory and 1.5v memory. So a system that will tolerate high latency would probably run low latency RAM but not the other way around and a system that needs 1.3 volts might run with 1.5 but one that needs 1.5 probably wouldn't run well or at all with only 1.3.

For a "sane" answer I usually go to a reputable site like Crucial to check, where you can input system model number or MB model number and see the recommend memory specs.
That would make for high-end machines but for entry level? I simply can't see it working. Most enthusiasts that go out and buy the parts to assemble a machine themselves tend to cut corners on something, unless an unlimited supply of $$ is available. Sometimes it comes only in therms of pinching a few pennies and instead of buying brand A because brand B has the somewhat same characteristics, B option takes effect. In my experience, enthusiasts are far from tech savy.
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Re: about the RAM machines take

#9 Post by NFT5 »

The incompatibility may be due to the density of the RAM. There are two types: high density and low density. Generally low density RAM will work in (almost) all motherboards, however high density RAM generally only works with motherboards designed for AMD processors, and not all of those.

I run mainly AMD processors and have a mixture of high and low density RAM sticks across different machines. This is generally fine with Gigabyte motherboards but some other brands won't accept them, nor will motherboards for Intel CPUs. It gets even more complicated with different chipsets. Mixing and matching the different types is even more complex, suffice to say that it's usually best to stick with one type on a machine since some will take different types but only when installed in specific slots.

Best advice I could give is to look up the specifications for the RAM that is on offer and compare to that you already have. If they appear compatible then you could always try - it will either work or it won't.

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Re: about the RAM machines take

#10 Post by qyron »

High and low density RAM?

I don't find it hard to believe the concept but I don't think that's a usual concern in my country when selling memory chips. When purchasing memory chips, you get usually asked what is the motherboard you're using (if the seller hasn't previously sold the motherboard himself) or simply what is the type of memory your machine uses/can use.
From that, the store clerk usually hands the memory more adequate to your system. And except for when the machine's owner is a complete nail head, its that simple.

Personally speaking, I never even had heard before of high and low density memories.
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Re: about the RAM machines take

#11 Post by NFT5 »

Google it.

As I mentioned, I run high density RAM in a number of machines and it works a treat. It is also significantly cheaper than the alternative low density.

There are, however, a lot of misconceptions, even fallacies, being touted around the 'net. It's reject quality, it's slower, it's ....whatever. Mostly rubbish. High density RAM is made that way and marketed by most of the well known and respected memory suppliers. Your local 'store clerk' may intentionally supply high density, if he knows his products and needs an edge on pricing. Country is irrelevant; high density RAM is sold and used world wide.

For a little, not too technical explanation, have a read here.

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Re: about the RAM machines take

#12 Post by qyron »

Again, I was never made aware of such kind of memory sticks and I've worked with IT dealers.

After your reply I went window shopping on a few online stores and none had the smallest mention regarding RAM density.

EDIT: but, and I was getting enthralled by the information I'm getting, from where can someone simply state that because memory chip X of vendor Y was sold to be installed in a machine powered by CPU brand Z it automatically implies the same chip can't be moved for a CPU brand A based machine? That was what sparked this thread in the first place. :?

Reasonable motives for some memory chips working in some machines and not in other have been put up by now but no definitive statement that all AMD and all Intel based motherboards have different (hence incompatible) RAM form factors that render chip migration impossible.

Edit2: just because, I went and checked the QVL for memory of my motherboard and there is no mention regarding density neither on the general specifications. Now I'm starting to think if this some move to keep users in the dark.
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Re: about the RAM machines take

#14 Post by dasein »

qyron wrote:,,,no definitive statement that all AMD and all Intel based motherboards have different (hence incompatible) RAM form factors that render chip migration impossible.
That's because it isn't true.

[/thread]

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Re: about the RAM machines take [CLOSED]

#15 Post by qyron »

Definitely [/thread].

But I never cease to be amazed by the amount of knowledge I get out of dumb premises/questions is this forum.
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Re: about the RAM machines take

#16 Post by qyron »

Kudos for that!

And now

[/thread]
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