Shoud i buy a Linux Laptop to save some money?

[bester69]

Is it a good idea to look for a Laptop with Linux in order to buy a powerfull computer cheaper, so i save some money?

Amazon seem to have some good prices for Linux Laptops at the moment.

[julian516]

I have owned two System 76 laptops. Both have been quite good for my general computing purposes. S-76 ships with Ubuntu preloaded but it is a simple task to swap it out for the Linux of your choice if Ubuntu is not to your liking. Their support has been good the few times I have needed it. I have run Debian Stable and/or Testing on both machines with no trouble at all. I believe there is an outfit called Zareason which also sells laptops with Linux preloaded and Dell might still be shipping some models with Linux preloaded.

Have I saved money? No, I do not think so. What I have done is to gain assurance that the laptop's various bits and pieces are Linux-friendly, which means an absence of driver problems among other things. That has been worth some extra dollars for me. (If you need a printer stay with HP. They support Linux better than any other printer-vendor.)

If you are not in the U.S. then, of course, these are not prime vendors for you but I am sure you can locate others closer to you. I think my point would hold. You are not going to save money but you are going to get "Linux-friendly" hardware and perhaps better after-sale support.

[bester69]

I have owned two System 76 laptops. Both have been quite good for my general computing purposes. S-76 ships with Ubuntu preloaded but it is a simple task to swap it out for the Linux of your choice if Ubuntu is not to your liking. Their support has been good the few times I have needed it. I have run Debian Stable and/or Testing on both machines with no trouble at all. I believe there is an outfit called Zareason which also sells laptops with Linux preloaded and Dell might still be shipping some models with Linux preloaded.

Have I saved money? No, I do not think so. What I have done is to gain assurance that the laptop's various bits and pieces are Linux-friendly, which means an absence of driver problems among other things. That has been worth some extra dollars for me. (If you need a printer stay with HP. They support Linux better than any other printer-vendor.)

If you are not in the U.S. then, of course, these are not prime vendors for you but I am sure you can locate others closer to you. I think my point would hold. You are not going to save money but you are going to get "Linux-friendly" hardware and perhaps better after-sale support.

I know those are primary linux vendors, I saw they're very expensive, and i dont see they give you nothing worth it, but what about those offers that say comes with linux, they're suppose to save the windows license in them, isn't it?, and that might be around 40 or 60 € in the buy, so you could point to a better computer.

[GarryRicketson]

The advantage of buying a laptop with a Linux distro pre-installed would
be for those that do not know how to install a OS, that way they have it
all ready to go, and "just works", no need to hassle with trying to learn how to install a OS.

[alan stone]

Is it a good idea to look for a Laptop with Linux in order to buy a powerfull computer cheaper, so i save some money?

What is a powerful computer? New or 2nd hand? What's your budget? Save how much at least?

[qyron]

If you're looking to cheat Micro$oft of its money you can. The Windows EULA states pretty clearly that if the user does not agree with the terms and conditions of the software, the user is entitled to return the software to the vendor and have a refund of its value.

You can read it in full here but this is the interesting part.

By accepting this agreement or using the software, you agree to all of these terms, and consent to the transmission of certain information during activation and during your use of the software as per the privacy statement described in Section 3. If you do not accept and comply with these terms, you may not use the software or its features. You may contact the device manufacturer or installer, or your retailer if you purchased the software directly, to determine its return policy and return the software or device for a refund or credit under that policy. You must comply with that policy, which might require you to return the software with the entire device on which the software is installed for a refund or credit, if any.

In my country, although the phrasing persists, the way things work are quite different.

Most hardware vendors refuse to return the value of the software and some go even further saying that all warranties are void if you remove the software from the machines. However, warranties verse on hardware defects not the software loaded on it and this has been a source of severe headaches recently.

ASUS is the sole company that does not care. You make a simple phone call or send an email to their service stating that you don't want the Windows license and would like to return it. They will send in a few days an email with a few questions and some instructions for you to follow and voilá!, you get rid of the freaking parasite and ASUS transfers to your bank account the amount for the Windows license, usually around €60.

But about buying a machine built to cater Linux...

Never had to. All my machines were either built by me (desktops) or simply purchased (laptops) and later installed with Linux, Debian mostly. I wasn't always very wise and wandered about for some time. I had an MSI, an ASUS and presently simply gave up on laptop and just keep an old Eeepc for fooling around. I also helped to configure a lot of other laptops with a great deal of success.

ASUS is almost sure to be Linux friendly. MSI, most of the times. Dell used to sell machines preconfigured with Ubuntu but its a very low represented brand in my neck of the woods. HP is a wild card; you really have to take the chance. Lenovo supposedly is Linux friendly.

From my personal experience, Intel based machines tend to be less friendly and require more work to install and configure while AMD based machines usually are simpler. The same applies to NVidia and Radeon cards, with the later usually being simpler to configure and less prone to fudging the system.
Wireless cards tend to be a pain no mater what...

If you intend on buying new, I would strongly advise for you to do some serious and intense google-fu and research about the Linux compatibility of the machines catching your eye. If you are on the used market, the research is as valid as in the previous but easier.

[bester69]

If you're looking to cheat Micro$oft of its money you can. The Windows EULA states pretty clearly that if the user does not agree with the terms and conditions of the software, the user is entitled to return the software to the vendor and have a refund of its value.

You can read it in full here but this is the interesting part.

By accepting this agreement or using the software, you agree to all of these terms, and consent to the transmission of certain information during activation and during your use of the software as per the privacy statement described in Section 3. If you do not accept and comply with these terms, you may not use the software or its features. You may contact the device manufacturer or installer, or your retailer if you purchased the software directly, to determine its return policy and return the software or device for a refund or credit under that policy. You must comply with that policy, which might require you to return the software with the entire device on which the software is installed for a refund or credit, if any.

In my country, although the phrasing persists, the way things work are quite different.

Most hardware vendors refuse to return the value of the software and some go even further saying that all warranties are void if you remove the software from the machines. However, warranties verse on hardware defects not the software loaded on it and this has been a source of severe headaches recently.

ASUS is the sole company that does not care. You make a simple phone call or send an email to their service stating that you don't want the Windows license and would like to return it. They will send in a few days an email with a few questions and some instructions for you to follow and voilá!, you get rid of the freaking parasite and ASUS transfers to your bank account the amount for the Windows license, usually around €60.

But about buying a machine built to cater Linux...

Never had to. All my machines were either built by me (desktops) or simply purchased (laptops) and later installed with Linux, Debian mostly. I wasn't always very wise and wandered about for some time. I had an MSI, an ASUS and presently simply gave up on laptop and just keep an old Eeepc for fooling around. I also helped to configure a lot of other laptops with a great deal of success.

ASUS is almost sure to be Linux friendly. MSI, most of the times. Dell used to sell machines preconfigured with Ubuntu but its a very low represented brand in my neck of the woods. HP is a wild card; you really have to take the chance. Lenovo supposedly is Linux friendly.

From my personal experience, Intel based machines tend to be less friendly and require more work to install and configure while AMD based machines usually are simpler. The same applies to NVidia and Radeon cards, with the later usually being simpler to configure and less prone to fudging the system.
Wireless cards tend to be a pain no mater what...

If you intend on buying new, I would strongly advise for you to do some serious and intense google-fu and research about the Linux compatibility of the machines catching your eye. If you are on the used market, the research is as valid as in the previous but easier.

Intersting to know that ..., then i suppose it would be better to go for an Asus , and pay back the Windows License

[stevepusser]

Usually you won't save much money, since MS provides Windows to OEMs at a steep discount, plus the OEM gets a kickback from the crapware companies that pay to have their trialware preinstalled. They don't get that kickback with a Linux install.

And stock Debian will have some issues with machines with 5th generation or higher Intel graphics (i5-5XXXX for example), or some types of wireless chipset, but these can usually be fixed with jessie-backports kernels, Mesa, and firmware. If you depend on wifi for a connection, or boot to a blank screen, these things can be difficult for a beginner to overcome.

[NFT5]

HP also make a number of notebook models that are Linux friendly. I have one (HP15) which came with Win8. That model (and some others) come with either Windows or (usually) Ubuntu pre-installed. Generally retailers only carry the Windows models but you can order Linux if you want. If you wait until one that suits is one special you can often make some significant savings there.

I also have an Asus and it, too, has been quite easy to set up with Debian. Neither are (or were) top of the range models but perform quite well on Debian, especially if given some extra RAM (8GB in each case). This is where you can save some serious money. Unless you're gaming and need the latest i7 CPU and top end graphics, a notebook with a lesser specification can work just as well. The Asus has a Celeron N2815 which definitely isn't top end, while the HP is an A6-5200. They each cost under $350AUD. Some even have provision for a second drive or you can swap the factory HDD for an SSD which will also give a noticeable boost. I did all of this with one and still spent less than a high end model.

As for printers, Samsung continue to provide Linux printer drivers which work quite well. Not quite as fully featured as their Windows cousins, but more than adequate.

[edbarx]

I suggest the OP to avoid any laptops advertised to support Linux as I found them to be invariably expensive. My estimate is you get half of what you pay for. My approach is to buy a machine with MS Windows, or if possible with nothing installed, and install whatever OS I want.

I can describe my latest purchase, HP Probook 4540s, that for the first week was a real never ending nightmare. I installed Debian Jessie but it wouldn't boot no matter what I did. This is a UEFI based machine that came with Windows 7 installed. I tried Legacy Boot, but the machine refused to boot my installation as I use GPT for its obvious advantages. I had to be contented with booting in EFI mode without secure boot, although the latter wouldn't have stopped me from booting whatever I want. In EFI mode, the machine continued refusing to boot. I used my earlier laptop to read about my problem and found I needed to create an EFI System Partition but I didn't know what to place in it. After several days, if I remember more than a week, I found that HP wants the EFI System Partition to contain the following path at a minimum:

Code: Select all

/EFI/Microsoft/Boot/bootmgfw.efi

Bootmgfw.efi can be any primary bootloader including grubx64.efi. The fix was to rename grubx64.efi to bootmgfw.efi and copy it to /EFI/Microsoft/Boot. After that I had an issue with 3D acceleration being disabled which I rectified by upgrading to Testing.

[qyron]

Out of the main subject

EFI is, in my view, just another way to try to lock out users to do what they want with the machine they buy. Although originally it was created to expand and overcome the limitations of BIOS, it got caught by the money grubbers.

In Spain, there was a group that filled a formal complaint to the EU Supreme Court, against the demands put in by Microsoft regarding secure boot proceedings. Others should follow.

Back to the subject in order

Do some windows shopping, research the machines catching your eye the most in terms of Linux-friendliness and buy it.
Linux also has the amazing capability of prolonging old/ageing hardware useful life, so even a somewhat older machine (unless the user is going to be using some really resource hungry applications) can make up a very decent working machine.

[edbarx]

EFI is, in my view, just another way to try to lock out users to do what they want with the machine they buy. Although originally it was created to expand and overcome the limitations of BIOS, it got caught by the money grubbers.

Originally, I tended to share your opinion, but forum members like Head_on_a_Stick gave me enough information to be more positive thinking about UEFI. Debian, Ubuntu and obviously Red Hat can boot in UEFI secure boot. Do you know what that means? It means, anyone can boot those kernels which in turn may be made to run a bootloader in the worst case scenario.

Since the mentioned three Linux distributions can boot under Secure Boot, I find it difficult to digest any claims claiming that UEFI is another way to suppress Linux's freedom.

[dasein]

The Windows EULA states pretty clearly that if the user does not agree with the terms and conditions of the software, the user is entitled to return the software to the vendor and have a refund of its value.
(Emphasis added)

That's not what the EULA actually says, nor is it anywhere close. Read for yourself in the portion you pasted:

... the device manufacturer... determine its return policy
[snip]
You must comply with that policy, which might require you to return... the entire device on which the software is installed... .
(Again, emphasis added)

Translation: it's up to the vendor's whim. The EULA does not require them to refund the Windows license fee. (Which, as stevepusser noted, is not the same as full retail price).

Then too, the notion that one can save money by buying Linux preloaded is pure BS. Profit margins on hardware are tiny, so Linux-preload vendors invariably have to charge more for the same hardware, because their sales volume is at best one-50th of the Windows OEMs.

[Head_on_a_Stick]

I saved £79 on my last laptop by ordering it without an operating system

https://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/

It came with a trial version of Windows 7 that lasted all of 3 hours before being replaced with Arch

[HuangLao]

I like to build my own or buy "off lease business pc's". Not sure where you are located but in the US, Canada and Mexico www.tigerdirect.com is a great source for parts or buying pc's new and used.

I've heard great things about https://www.thinkpenguin.com/ as well.

Note: not affiliated with any of them other than being a customer.

[HuangLao]

I saved £79 on my last laptop by ordering it without an operating system

https://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/

It came with a trial version of Windows 7 that lasted all of 3 hours before being replaced with Arch

3 hours...HOA, I'm surprised it was that long.

[RU55EL]

I know it is not a notebook computer, but I've become quite fond of the Intel NUC. Assembled with a Wifi card from thinkpenguin.com, non-free firmware isn't required. You install your own operating system (it doesn't come with an OS) and it can be mounted on the back of your flat screen monitor with the vesa mount that comes in the box.

[qyron]

Originally, I tended to share your opinion, but forum members like Head_on_a_Stick gave me enough information to be more positive thinking about UEFI. Debian, Ubuntu and obviously Red Hat can boot in UEFI secure boot. Do you know what that means? It means, anyone can boot those kernels which in turn may be made to run a bootloader in the worst case scenario.

Since the mentioned three Linux distributions can boot under Secure Boot, I find it difficult to digest any claims claiming that UEFI is another way to suppress Linux's freedom.

I don't go against your opinion and sincerely I'm glad to know that.

I'll put Debian up front and ignore Ubuntu, because the later depends on the first, and follow with RedHat. Aren't these distros based (engineered? built towards/upon? what's the most correct term?) on systemd? Can I assume it's because of systemd they pass the secure boot demands? If I can, read on, if not, I'm just going to be speaking gibberish and you can safely ignore it.

I don't have anything against systemd, personally speaking. On a 1 to 7 scale of tech-fu I'll rate myself as a humble 3; I can't code to save my life and besides being "smart enough" to get my system up and running I'm really limited, although I admit I'm always eager to learn something new.
That's why I'm gathering enough guts to get myself into LFS... Just leaving the link for someone who doesn't know about it; I'll assume most forum dwellers here know about it.

systemd is under heavy attack lately because its a breakaway on the core fundamentals of the GNU/Linux system: freedom of choice. Can all alternatives to systemd put up the necessary requirements to met secure boot? If not, even if only one, it's a lock out.
If, eventually, all alternatives to systemd can evolve to meet secure boot demands, great. Another punch in the eye of the barons.

[qyron]

That's not what the EULA actually says, nor is it anywhere close. Read for yourself in the portion you pasted:

I did. Oh so many times have I did so...

Translation: it's up to the vendor's whim. The EULA does not require them to refund the Windows license fee. (Which, as stevepusser noted, is not the same as full retail price).

That is what is there.

But, again, I can only speak from my own experience and in my country hardware vendors have been trampled over. The hardware and the software are understood as separate identities and not tied against each other. This came from the moment people started installing machines with Linux and then had to send those machines to support because some component croaked and the vendor immediately tried refused warranties because of the OS switch/add on. Add a consumer rights association to the mix and a few law suits and some really dirty boots were going up some asses.

HP in my country as issued an unofficial memorandum to their support line staff (call center) stating the moment someone calling them regarding turning a license in they have to do deny in any way that possibility and if met with insistence, force written to headquarters. I'm still waiting a reply on such a question I've made them.
Dell forces you to send, at your expense, your machines abroad, to get the OS removed. Can you take a guess on what also gets done to the machine, especially if you have been adamant about taking out the OS?

Then too, the notion that one can save money by buying Linux preloaded is pure BS. Profit margins on hardware are tiny, so Linux-preload vendors invariably have to charge more for the same hardware, because their sales volume is at best one-50th of the Windows OEMs.

Hold that thought.
Hardware profit margins can be slim but a smart company will invest in developing a relation with their customers providing services. Windows excels at this in the tragic way: I know people taking their machine to the shop for virus clean and OS update/reinstall every 3 or 4 months.
Linux vendors can get this same money providing support for users. I can't see a Linux box demanding that much attention but I can definitely see a user requiring training or support.

[phenest]

I bought a Dell XPS 17 L702X. I then carefully removed the COA label, bundled it with the OS/driver discs, etc, and sold it on eBay for £40 GBP.