Linux Foundation Exec. Director's Statement on Immigration

[acewiza]

The US and UK's Military and their search for the non existent WMDs and the protection of access to Oil has lead to the crisis we have today.

No, Shia-Sunni conflict that's been ongoing for centuries is the root cause leading to the current Middle East debacle. Our involvement is just a symptom of the problem.

[debiman]

Nicolette says:

If everybody knew what they wanted
there'd be no government.

[oswaldkelso]

The US and UK's Military and their search for the non existent WMDs and the protection of access to Oil has lead to the crisis we have today.

No, Shia-Sunni conflict that's been ongoing for centuries is the root cause leading to the current Middle East debacle. Our involvement is just a symptom of the problem.

I think it's a bit more than a symptom. The Linux Foundation Director's Statement on Immigration was brought about by Donald Trumps travel ban from 7 Muslim countries, we need to look at the circumstances that brought that about. While I agree that the Sunni-Shia conflict has a very long history, we're actually looking at the US and it's involvement in it. I'm saying that US foreign policy including the removal of Saddam Hussain has exasperated this and lead to the rise of ISIS. Sadly it's also lead to the mass movement of people from the far east fleeing the very same threat that Trump uses as his excuse for his illegal travel ban.

From a UK perspective you only need to read the Chilcot report http://www.iraqinquiry.org.uk/the-inqui ... statement/ but many of the findings apply equally to the US

All that said the cat is out of the bag. Any rational analysis of Trumps travel ban makes no logical sense except to feed on peoples fears and divisions. The knock-on effect is in full swing, the rise of nationalism is rife and we all know what a terrible record that has.

The real question is how do we turn things around and have peace and prosperity across the whole planet. Sod "America first" or any other nation state or religious doctrine for that matter. If we what our children and their childens children to survive and have a future, we need to be building bridges not bloody walls. "People first" I say, all peoples. When we reach that state then there is little or no desire or benefit to anyone to fight wars.

[acewiza]

I think it's a bit more than a symptom. The Linux Foundation Director's Statement on Immigration was brought about by Donald Trumps travel ban from 7 Muslim countries, we need to look at.

No it's not. There are 51 countries in the world with Muslim majority populations, most of which are FAR more populous than the countries listed in the travel ban.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country

This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with banning Muslims from entering the U.S. It is intended to stop terrorists from entering the country. It just so happens terrorists tend to be Muslim these days. And we have a pretty good idea where most f them are based. If you have a better idea for now, let's hear it.

Every sovereign nation has the right to look after it's own internal security as it sees fit. Any other nation concerned with that topic is obliged to put up or shut up if they wish to do business, travel or whattever. Maybe things would be different if we weren't obliged to remain distracted with intervening in a mess of stupid religious nonsense to protect our national security interests, since around the end of WWII.

It's a bit ironic how it's all about religion at the root, but the moderates can't seem to get that through their thick skulls, so they claim foul in the name of religion.

[oswaldkelso]

acewiza @ You should go back and read what I said. Not what you think I said. Slowly please.

[acewiza]

I'm just getting a few facts on the table before posters in this thread get distracted. Now for some of my opinion. WRT to the Linux Foundation (as a bandwagon jumper) and the so-called high-tech giants like Google, Apple, M$, et al. and their complaints on the topic: You can bet your bottom dollar (pound, yen, whatever) their only concern is the ability to continue exploiting lower-paid foreign workers. This altruistic nonsense about "immigration" or "religious persecution," or "travel ban discrimination based on religion" is exactly what it is - nonsense.

[golinux]

Jeesh . . . this thread has gotten soooo boring . . . (yawn)

[oswaldkelso]

No where did I say it was a Muslim ban. I said the ban made no logical sense and that the Gulf war helped in the creation of ISIS. The 7 countries named have not had any terrorist attacks within the US while countries that have are missing. If the US want's to tighten it's borders please do, but at least have some resemblance of democratic means of doing so. If Trump is going to go on about terrorists he could start at home by looking at the White supremacists in his own back yard and posts he elected them to.

Number of people killed by terrorist attacks in the US from the 7 countries named zero. Number killed by gun crime in the US in 2016 alone was 15,000 and if you want to go all the way back to 9-11 the numbers are horrific. Surly if he really wants to protect Americans the way to do it is ban and destroy guns.

I'm just getting a few facts on the table before posters in this thread get distracted. Now for some of my opinion. WRT to the Linux Foundation (as a bandwagon jumper) and the so-called high-tech giants like Google, Apple, M$, et al. and their complaints on the topic: You can bet your bottom dollar (pound, yen, whatever) their only concern is the ability to continue exploiting lower-paid foreign workers. This altruistic nonsense about "immigration" or "religious persecution," or "travel ban discrimination based on religion" is exactly what it is - nonsense.

I'm pretty sure that most multinationals have departments in many countries all over the world and while I don't disagree with you on the fact they exploit people for cheap labour. I doubt they are the ones affected by the blanket ban. In fact cheap labour is one of the reasons Trump is going down his protectionist policy. Capitalism is now well and truly world wide. The US has a huge wealth divide and as the third world rises so first world sinks. Ultimately there will be no people to exploit except those in your own backyard (all the Mexicans will be on the other side of the wall). and those in power will need dictatorships and oppression to control the masses as any democracy will surly overthrow them.

[acewiza]

No where did I say it was a Muslim ban. I said the ban made no logical sense and that the Gulf war helped in the creation of ISIS.

Which are of course, false statements. Thoroughly vetting travelers from terrorist haven countries is only good, common sense. The seeds of ISIS were planted in the Iranian revolution. Lots of things helped create ISIS and there's plenty of blame to go around. Attempting to blame U.S. foreign policy for the rise of ISIS is simply spurious - you are barking up the wrong tree. You cannot say with any veracity the ME would not be in WORSE shape today, were it not for U.S. and coalition military intervention.

Like I said, it is what it is: The big, bad West lording over the creepy little Muslims. How awful. If they could take care of their own business without threatening the rest of world. Oh wait...

[golinux]

Thoroughly vetting travelers from terrorist haven countries is only good, common sense.

Then why isn't Saudi Arabia on the ban list after bringing down the twin towers?

Attempting to blame U.S. foreign policy for the rise of ISIS is simply spurious - you are barking up the wrong tree.

If there were no oil in the mid-east do you think the US would have been there at all?

If they could take care of their own business without threatening the rest of world.

Exactly. Chicken/egg. The US is reaping what it has sowed by sticking their nose where they had no business doing so.

[GarryRicketson]

If there were no oil in the mid-east do you think the US would have been there at all?

No

[acewiza]

I know it is easy to believe the fake news and parrot convenient-sounding falsehoods, but history and facts provide a much better basis of understanding for people willing to invest the time to learn the truth.

Then why isn't Saudi Arabia on the ban list after bringing down the twin towers?

Not Saudia Arabia. They are one of our strongest allies in the region. "Countries" don't "officially" sponsor terrorism. Saudi Arabia is not now and has never been known to be one of the state-sponsors of terrorism.

If there were no oil in the mid-east do you think the US would have been there at all?

Of course not. But as I stated earlier, we as a nation have every right to look after our national interests, mideast oil being one of them, albeit much less of a factor now than it was 20 years ago. That is also why Saudi is one of our strongest allies. We buy their oil. We buy oil from many ME countries. Securing the oil supply is a matter of global economic well-being, not just the U.S.

The US is reaping what it has sowed by sticking their nose where they had no business doing so.

Fair enough. But tha's just your opinion - clearly a minority opinion, because we are there and it "is" what it is, however you choose to define it. Characterizing it that way with no backstory support is rather disingenuous.

[MALsPa]

I don't see why the mods haven't closed this thread.