Wow. Really?

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Re: Wow. Really?

Postby dasein » 2017-05-30 14:28

deborah-and-ian wrote:Feels like those guys in the 70ies arguing that it's sexist for men to be excluded from battered women's shelters.

Image

Thanks for capturing what I couldn't quite put into words!
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Re: Wow. Really?

Postby arochester » 2017-05-30 17:04

I want to emphasize that Devuan is NOT Debian without - or worse, "against" - systemd. Systemd will be supported in Devuan. Devuan is a fork in favor of freedom of choice. Sysvinit will remain the default init system, but all init systems will be supported - at least, all those that are packaged in Debian at the moment.


Translation from http://forum.debianizzati.org/viewtopic ... 04#p188107 dated 11/30/2014
"Something to be aware of: Debian is a core or source distribution. This means there are many Debian-based distributions. THEY ARE NOT DEBIAN."
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Re: Wow. Really?

Postby phenest » 2017-05-30 18:46

golinux wrote:
phenest wrote:But is it possible to install systemd in Devuan?

Not without unpinning and reassembling packages that have been santized of frivolous 'entanglements'. I would predict dependency hell and unlikely things would work very well.

At last, someone who knows how to answer a question.

So, basically, the answer is "no". But how long will it be before some user wants to do it, and the Devuan forums fill up with posts about how better Devuan is than Debian but they need systemd for some reason. I can't think of a reason but someone will.

What the hell, I'm going to download Devuan now. (And no, it's not to try systemd with it.)
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Re: Wow. Really?

Postby golinux » 2017-05-30 18:49

arochester wrote:
I want to emphasize that Devuan is NOT Debian without - or worse, "against" - systemd. Systemd will be supported in Devuan. Devuan is a fork in favor of freedom of choice. Sysvinit will remain the default init system, but all init systems will be supported - at least, all those that are packaged in Debian at the moment.
Translation from http://forum.debianizzati.org/viewtopic ... 04#p188107 dated 11/30/2014

That was well over two years ago. The landscape has changed a LOT since then. Most importantly, systemd has become much more than init. Its system wide entanglements have made co-existence within a single installation an impossibility. Think what a glacier does slowly to everything in its path. Eventually there is only the glacier . . .

That's why Devuan encourages users who want to run systemd to use Debian. Devuan will continue to provide an alternative of modularity in the Unix tradition (which it seems Debian has abandoned).
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Re: Wow. Really?

Postby pylkko » 2017-05-30 18:57

I read on slashdot that GNU's own init system (shepherd) is available on Devuan. I wonder how well that works. I don't want to mess around with GNU's linux distro because of the libre kernel that would cause problems on a lot of hardware, I suspect.
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Re: Wow. Really?

Postby None1975 » 2017-05-31 15:21

phenest wrote:Devuan forums fill up with posts about how better Devuan is than Debian but they need systemd for some reason. I can't think of a reason but someone will..

Yes, you are right. I really miss it, full of happiness popular and exciting systemd. I loved when my system hangs while shutting down, love message, like: "A stop job is running for..." https://postimg.org/image/ar7e3ashz, And he's a good companion, and can easily solve the problem when nothing else to do. With systemd there is always something to do! After all, systemd to take care of my health when I want to restart the computer which is far away from me, he will hang him and I will definitely have to raise my ass and go to my computer, because the walk is very good for your health.No idea how I will live and miss the beloved systemd!
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Re: Wow. Really?

Postby arochester » 2017-05-31 18:22

LOL!!!

1)
That was well over two years ago. The landscape has changed a LOT since then. Most importantly, systemd has become much more than init.


Like, Debian Jessie released April 26th, 2015 - WITH SYSTEMD
Devuan Jessie LTS released May 25th 2017

As it says on another forum "Devuan, built on a two year old technology" - (mostly built by other people).

Stretch is nearly here!

2)
With systemd there is always something to do!
Not here.

3) The point keeps occurring to me
a) Does Debian "need" Devuan. Yes or No?
b) Does Devuan "need" Debian. Yes or No?

Perhaps the self-identifying, usual subjects should think carefully about putting down Debian and promoting Devuan as an "alternative".

(Theoretically) If Debian disappeared overnight, would Devuan be able to take its place? Yes or No?
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Re: Wow. Really?

Postby Bulkley » 2017-05-31 19:25

arochester, good questions. Although I do not use Devuan I quietly root for it. Debian may officially claim that it does not need Devuan but it does. The Devuan fork lets Debian developers off the hook for users who need the option. More importantly, users need to understand the differences and why Devuan was created. My long term hope is that Debian become less dogmatic about its position.
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Re: Wow. Really?

Postby golinux » 2017-05-31 20:16

arochester wrote:(Theoretically) If Debian disappeared overnight, would Devuan be able to take its place? Yes or No?

Currently only a very small number of packages require attention. But we are aware that at some point Devuan may have to become an 'independent' distribution. Our exodus plan was intended to allow current Debian users a smooth upgrade path from Debian (Wheezy or Jessie) to Devuan Jessie. After Jessie that conversion will no longer be possible ie Stretch to ASCII. It will require a reinstall.
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Re: Wow. Really?

Postby arochester » 2017-05-31 21:20

Currently only a very small number of packages require attention

A one-trick pony?
A person or group noteworthy for only a single achievement, skill, or characteristic.
- https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/one-trick_pony

What is an "independent" distribution. Not a fork? Not a derivative? But independent???
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Re: Wow. Really?

Postby golinux » 2017-05-31 21:36

arochester wrote:
Currently only a very small number of packages require attention
A one-trick pony?
A person or group noteworthy for only a single achievement, skill, or characteristic.
- https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/one-trick_pony
Not really getting that except it sounds demeaning and unknowledgeable about how Devuan is built/set up.

arochester wrote:What is an "independent" distribution. Not a fork? Not a derivative? But independent???
Yes. Quite possibly no longer directly dependent on the Debian repos. We could work from a cached repository of Debian pkgs and use that as our base for Devuan pkgs moving forward and/or work directly from upstream source. ASCII should be OK with our cuirrent setup. Beowulf? I don't have a crystal ball . . .
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Re: Wow. Really?

Postby arochester » 2017-05-31 21:53

1) So... (amongst others)...
Arch Linux is wrong.
CentOS is wrong.
CoreOS is wrong.
Debian is wrong.
Fedora is wrong.
Mageia is wrong.
OpenSUSE is wrong.
Redhat Enterprise Linux is wrong.
Suse Linux Enterprise Server is wrong.
Ubuntu is wrong.

Devuan is right.
2)
Not really getting that
If Devuan can do more than one thing that Debian doesn't do, do you want to tell us about that?
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Re: Wow. Really?

Postby golinux » 2017-05-31 22:20

arochester wrote:1) So... (amongst others)...
Arch Linux is wrong.
CentOS is wrong.
CoreOS is wrong.
Debian is wrong.
Fedora is wrong.
Mageia is wrong.
OpenSUSE is wrong.
Redhat Enterprise Linux is wrong.
Suse Linux Enterprise Server is wrong.
Ubuntu is wrong.

Devuan is right.
LOL! I keep visualizing lemmings going over a cliff . . . Assuming that numbers somehow equate to 'right' is an illogical and unjustifiable conclusion. A majority is just that and has nothing to do with a judgment of 'right' or 'wrong'. The issue is choice. Your 'right' might be my 'wrong' and vice versa.
arochester wrote:2)
Not really getting that
If Devuan can do more than one thing that Debian doesn't do, do you want to tell us about that?
We have fixed several bugs and sent patches back to Debian. Plus we have developed unique package management and image building workflows,

I suspect we may also support more arm boards than Debian and we have iso options that Debian doesn't have and even virtual images.
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Re: Wow. Really?

Postby dasein » 2017-05-31 22:56

It's called the bandwagon fallacy, and is based on the wrong-headed notion that popularity and correctness are synonymous (when in fact they are not even vaguely correlated).

So... (amongst others)...
Plato was wrong.
Aristotle was wrong.
Pythagoras was wrong.
Ptolemy was wrong.
The bible is wrong.
Over 1,000 years of conventional wisdom was wrong.

Well... yeah. As a matter of fact, turns out that they were all wrong. (Bummer, huh?)

If Devuan can do more than one thing that Debian doesn't do, do you want to tell us about that?

Wait... I can fix that for you...
If systemd can do more than one thing that existing userspace doesn't do, do you want to tell us about that? (Hint: whatever you name has to be worth at least $1,000,000,000 in deployment costs.)

P.S. In point of fact, for 60% of Debian developers who voted in the GR, the nicest thing they could find to say about systemd and gratuitous init coupling is that it "should be avoided." (Their words, not mine.) See viewtopic.php?f=20&t=120652&start=30#p576502 for math.
Last edited by dasein on 2017-06-01 14:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wow. Really?

Postby fsmithred » 2017-06-01 02:47

Wow again. Sorry I'm late to the party. I've been so busy, I forgot all about this thread.

Garry, thank you! I posted because I thought it was a bit severe for the original thread to get locked so quickly. I didn't think this one would last, either. But you fixed it double. You pinned the original, and this one is still here.

I don't have any philosophical arguments to share right now. I've been using devuan for over a year, and to me, it looks and acts just like debian always has. Rock-solid and dependable.

Well, ok, but just one. Diversity in an ecosystem increases the stability of that system.

Thanks again.
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