Scheduled Maintenance: We are aware of an issue with Google, AOL, and Yahoo services as email providers which are blocking new registrations. We are trying to fix the issue and we have several internal and external support tickets in process to resolve the issue. Please see: viewtopic.php?t=158230

 

 

 

"A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Debian

Off-Topic discussions about science, technology, and non Debian specific topics.
Message
Author
User avatar
golinux
Posts: 1579
Joined: 2010-12-09 00:56
Location: not a 'buntard!
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

#16 Post by golinux »

/tmp wrote:My dislike of the "Veteran Unix Admins" has to do with the Network World article's citations of what constitutes a "good admin." As someone whom works with end users directly it is incredibly insulting to immediately assume that it's always the end user's fault for an issue, or no "true" admin uses anything other than vi. My quarrel is with the idea of using the ideas espoused in said article as the cornerstone of a new system.
Could you please post a link to the Network World article that you have referenced several times? (It's always good to include sources of information.) I think that I have seen the list that you are talking about but can't remember it being associated with Devuan. I'll be happy to search the archives and let you know what I find.

BTW I am the last thing from being a 'VUA' - mostly a desktop GuiGirl - and that has not been an impediment to my use of or extensive involvement with Devuan.
May the FORK be with you!

User avatar
dasein
Posts: 7680
Joined: 2011-03-04 01:06
Location: Terra Incantationum

Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

#17 Post by dasein »

Golinux, let me try to help clarify a couple of points. But first, you have to be able to "decode" what passes for logic in the OP's mind.

What he's saying is something along these lines (paraphrasing):
I don't like the traits attributed to a particular group by a particular author in a particular article, and I'm using that as a justification for a pig-headed prejudice that has absolutely no basis in, y'know, reality.

Whatever you do...

1) don't take notice of the fact that this is merely one person's "take" on the group in question; treat the contents of the article as immutable fact, along the lines of Newton's Laws.

2) don't take notice of the fact that this article was written years before Devuan was even formed/forked. So even if the article in question were carved in stone by the firey finger of the divine, it absolutely does not apply to the question as posed.

3) do not, do NOT, DO not notice that my "question" isn't a question at all. It's 100% pure troll-bait and this thread should be allowed to die off as quickly as possible.
Clearer now is it? ;-)

tl;dr: Just another systemd troll thread. Nothing to see here. Please move along.
Last edited by dasein on 2017-08-03 16:55, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
/tmp
Posts: 426
Joined: 2011-12-31 08:39
Location: GNU Userlands
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

#18 Post by /tmp »

golinux wrote:
/tmp wrote:My dislike of the "Veteran Unix Admins" has to do with the Network World article's citations of what constitutes a "good admin." As someone whom works with end users directly it is incredibly insulting to immediately assume that it's always the end user's fault for an issue, or no "true" admin uses anything other than vi. My quarrel is with the idea of using the ideas espoused in said article as the cornerstone of a new system.
Could you please post a link to the Network World article that you have referenced several times? (It's always good to include sources of information.) I think that I have seen the list that you are talking about but can't remember it being associated with Devuan. I'll be happy to search the archives and let you know what I find.

BTW I am the last thing from being a 'VUA' - mostly a desktop GuiGirl - and that has not been an impediment to my use of or extensive involvement with Devuan.
Sure! Here's the article in question.
Bookworm | Intel I7-3667U | Apple Macbook Air 5,2 (Mid 2012) (Laptop) | 8 GB RAM | 3rd Gen Intel Core Graphics

User avatar
/tmp
Posts: 426
Joined: 2011-12-31 08:39
Location: GNU Userlands
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

#19 Post by /tmp »

dasein wrote: tl;dr: Just another systemd troll thread. Nothing to see here. Please move along.
The thread title is in reference to me not breaking up the technical infrastructure of a proposed non-profit as I would prefer to keep a unified Free Software foundation for the whole of the effort.
Bookworm | Intel I7-3667U | Apple Macbook Air 5,2 (Mid 2012) (Laptop) | 8 GB RAM | 3rd Gen Intel Core Graphics

User avatar
golinux
Posts: 1579
Joined: 2010-12-09 00:56
Location: not a 'buntard!
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

#20 Post by golinux »

/tmp wrote:
golinux wrote:
/tmp wrote:My dislike of the "Veteran Unix Admins" has to do with the Network World article's citations of what constitutes a "good admin."
Could you please post a link to the Network World article that you have referenced several times?
Sure! Here's the article in question.
And what ties that article to Devuan? In fact the footnote says:
This story, "Nine traits of the veteran Unix admin," was originally published at InfoWorld.com.
And that was in 2011 long before the fork when we were all happily using Debian. I always saw it as tongue-in-cheek satire. Maybe your reading comprehension needs a upgrade . . .
May the FORK be with you!

User avatar
HuangLao
Posts: 485
Joined: 2015-01-27 01:31
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

#21 Post by HuangLao »

Image

Next people will say the article was about Slackware that year they came out with a non-systemd version.

pcalvert
Posts: 1939
Joined: 2006-04-21 11:19
Location: Sol Sector
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

#22 Post by pcalvert »

/tmp wrote: I'm focusing on making the system independent of systemd.
That rules out Debian then. However, you may want to consider doing what I did. You could use live-build to build a customized Debian live CD/DVD that uses sysvinit instead of systemd. It won't be totally systemd-free, though, because some systemd packages must be pulled in to satisfy dependencies. If you use Debian Jessie as your base, it will be fairly easy to convert those systems to Devuan Jessie in the future, should you choose to do so.

The systemd packages my Debian live CD contains are:
libpam-systemd
libsystemd0
systemd
systemd-shim

Phil
Freespoke is a new search engine that respects user privacy and does not engage in censorship.

User avatar
golinux
Posts: 1579
Joined: 2010-12-09 00:56
Location: not a 'buntard!
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

#23 Post by golinux »

pcalvert wrote:The systemd packages my Debian live CD contains are:
libpam-systemd
libsystemd0
systemd
systemd-shim

Phil
And my Devuan only has (for the moment):
libsystemd0.

If there were more people rebuilding packages to remove the unnecessary dependencies, that could be removed too.
May the FORK be with you!

User avatar
/tmp
Posts: 426
Joined: 2011-12-31 08:39
Location: GNU Userlands
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

#24 Post by /tmp »

golinux wrote:
This story, "Nine traits of the veteran Unix admin," was originally published at InfoWorld.com.
And that was in 2011 long before the fork when we were all happily using Debian.
Fair enough; I was basing this off of something someone offline had mentioned to me in conversation.
Bookworm | Intel I7-3667U | Apple Macbook Air 5,2 (Mid 2012) (Laptop) | 8 GB RAM | 3rd Gen Intel Core Graphics

User avatar
/tmp
Posts: 426
Joined: 2011-12-31 08:39
Location: GNU Userlands
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

#25 Post by /tmp »

HuangLao wrote:Image

Next people will say the article was about Slackware that year they came out with a non-systemd version.
I enjoy your use of ad-hominem instead of sound judgement; your contribution is greatly appreciated to the sum of human knowledge.
Bookworm | Intel I7-3667U | Apple Macbook Air 5,2 (Mid 2012) (Laptop) | 8 GB RAM | 3rd Gen Intel Core Graphics

User avatar
HuangLao
Posts: 485
Joined: 2015-01-27 01:31
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

#26 Post by HuangLao »

/tmp wrote:
HuangLao wrote:Image

Next people will say the article was about Slackware that year they came out with a non-systemd version.
I enjoy your use of ad-hominem instead of sound judgement; your contribution is greatly appreciated to the sum of human knowledge.
you're most welcome Lennart. as someone who has been around since some of the earliest days of Unix im sure others will agree the later part of your comment. :mrgreen: Actually, it was less ad-hominem and more argumentum ad verecundiam, but I digress and leave you with ad rem. Oxford will be your friend now.

Wheelerof4te
Posts: 1454
Joined: 2015-08-30 20:14

Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

#27 Post by Wheelerof4te »

OP, why don't you explain to us what is the point of this thread once again? What do you want with this?
Maybe then we will avoid trolling and off-topic talk. Surely that will be in your best interest, no?

deborah-and-ian
Posts: 182
Joined: 2016-07-13 08:40

Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

#28 Post by deborah-and-ian »

If the point is to have a stable foundation, then I don't think you could go wrong with either. On the one hand, Debian might still have a few system quirks, which are understandable as this init system is much younger than sysvrc and also does a lot more than just the init part. On the other, Devuan might still have a few quirks with offering replacements to software which depends on systemd or making sure that their alternatives work as intended -- since it's, well, still a young distro. But I think that both distros value the tenets of offering a stable, "don't break what's running well" sort of system.

But that's not the only point, right? You're educating people about open source software and, if they can't run Gnome or other software on Devuan properly, then they might miss out on a very popular piece of software.
Debian GNU/Linux 9 Stretch w/Openbox

Acer Aspire E5-521G
AMD A8-6410 APU
4 GB RAM
integrated AMD Mullins
dedicated AMD Hainan Radeon R5 M240 2 GB
240 GB Toshiba Q300 SSD
Realtek RTL8111/8168/8411 ethernet
Qualcomm Atheros QCA9565 wireless

User avatar
golinux
Posts: 1579
Joined: 2010-12-09 00:56
Location: not a 'buntard!
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

#29 Post by golinux »

deborah-and-ian wrote:You're educating people about open source software and, if they can't run Gnome or other software on Devuan properly, then they might miss out on a very popular piece of software.
Of course whatever is 'popular' if it's the default (with an eye to lock-in down the road). That plus, Linux users these days are more 'submissive' than they used to be . . .
May the FORK be with you!

deborah-and-ian
Posts: 182
Joined: 2016-07-13 08:40

Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

#30 Post by deborah-and-ian »

golinux wrote:
deborah-and-ian wrote:You're educating people about open source software and, if they can't run Gnome or other software on Devuan properly, then they might miss out on a very popular piece of software.
Of course whatever is 'popular' if it's the default (with an eye to lock-in down the road). That plus, Linux users these days are more 'submissive' than they used to be . . .
Oh, golinux, making a conspiracy of everything. And as a true conspiracy theorist, you're apt at putting words into my mouth I never intended with my post you've quoted. No words were uttered about the alleged default state of Gnome. It is however a popular desktop environment and, like it or not, beyond your hobbyist use of Linux, Gnome and KDE enjoy a wide use in e.g. companies or organisations which already use free software. Knowing your way around a Gnome desktop is not a futile lesson to teach then.

There is also nothing about submission there, but the students should be free to explore all possibilities and then make their own choice. Small tip: If you want to get people to Devuan's side, then maybe calling them submissive (or ridiculing them in other ways) just because they're curious about software you wouldn't use is the wrong way of doing it.

Education about free software should be free in its ideas as well. Posing your conspiracy theories about Red Hat, Gnome or systemd as the only truth is dangerous and limits the choices of others to find out about other opinions. Your approach is IMHO very toxic and anti-social, which is why I hope /tmp will take a more diplomatic and mature way to teach their students.
Debian GNU/Linux 9 Stretch w/Openbox

Acer Aspire E5-521G
AMD A8-6410 APU
4 GB RAM
integrated AMD Mullins
dedicated AMD Hainan Radeon R5 M240 2 GB
240 GB Toshiba Q300 SSD
Realtek RTL8111/8168/8411 ethernet
Qualcomm Atheros QCA9565 wireless

Funkygoby
Posts: 68
Joined: 2009-08-13 09:25

Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

#31 Post by Funkygoby »

Shall I add my modest contribution to this otherwise splendid discussion.
About the BSD, FreeBSD is not always the best choice. It is good for server where hardware is not exotic. It's also the only BSD who have nvidia attention and receive their proprietary driver.
For laptops (thinkpad above everything else) with no nvidia, OpenBSD seems to be the best choice.
I don't know the rest. I wouldn't recommend PCBSD, what is hard in FreeBSD is also hard in PCBSD.

It's not clear what you want to do with those laptops. A locked workstation or a computer your students can tinker with? Do you want the students to learn the mainstream stuff (linux), grow a unixy knowledge with a more concise system (OBSD have easy conf files, wonderful doc).
Are you trying to prevent the breaking up of Debian with laptops-equipped students?

Caitlin
Posts: 329
Joined: 2012-05-24 07:32
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

#32 Post by Caitlin »

Sounds to me you're installing Linux on a wide variety of hardware brands, some of which may be lean on resources. And that those who get these machines will be looking for support, either from you or directly from the user groups.

I believe you want a distro that is widely in use, with a friendly, well-established support base for those without a lot of technical knowledge.

May I suggest Ubuntu.

Caitlin

kedaha
Posts: 3521
Joined: 2008-05-24 12:26
Has thanked: 33 times
Been thanked: 77 times

Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

#33 Post by kedaha »

Caitlin wrote: I believe you want a distro that is widely in use, with a friendly, well-established support base for those without a lot of technical knowledge.

May I suggest Ubuntu.
I once installed Ubuntu on an elderly friend's laptop and it gave nothing but trouble; I got fed up with his "support" telephone calls. Once I'd installed a stable Debian DE on it, the calls ceased.
I've installed Debian on quite a few computers which are in use by non-technical users who do not stray from typical desktop use; for example, I installed, configured and now periodically update my father's system over the network, via ssh.
Running a desktop system, once initial configuration and software installation has been carried out, is a piece of cake, There is absolutely no reason why any knowledge of systems administration —beyond a few elementary things— should be acquired by the kind of users referred to @userprofile. In my workplace we have the Mate Desktop environment on 5 computers which are all used by users whose only experience is Windows.
A Debian desktop—which is poles apart from a Debian server requiring considerable technical expertise—can be run by anyone.
If you are going to recondition old laptops, then consider pre-installing Debian as, for instance @debian.org/distrib:
Buy a computer with Debian pre-installed

There are a number of advantages to this:

•You don't have to install Debian.
•The installation is pre-configured to match the hardware.
•The vendor may provide technical support.
DebianStable

Code: Select all

$ vrms

No non-free or contrib packages installed on debian!  rms would be proud.

deborah-and-ian
Posts: 182
Joined: 2016-07-13 08:40

Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

#34 Post by deborah-and-ian »

+1 on kedaha's reply. Ubuntu might make installing some 3rd party software that isn't found in the repos easier, but in the long run, I'd also rather install Debian/Devuan on a newbie's system, just because the support questions will be fewer, unless you haven't made sure that all initial manual setup work has been done.

Debian is especially great for systems that are just installed and not constantly tinkered with. And if you don't go crazy on backports and 3rd party stuff, upgrades are smooth sailing -- moreso than on Ubuntu. Add to that the fact that Debian more clearly separates ethically challenged software.
Debian GNU/Linux 9 Stretch w/Openbox

Acer Aspire E5-521G
AMD A8-6410 APU
4 GB RAM
integrated AMD Mullins
dedicated AMD Hainan Radeon R5 M240 2 GB
240 GB Toshiba Q300 SSD
Realtek RTL8111/8168/8411 ethernet
Qualcomm Atheros QCA9565 wireless

arochester
Emeritus
Emeritus
Posts: 2435
Joined: 2010-12-07 19:55
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 54 times

Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

#35 Post by arochester »

Seems to be nothing about the OP now.

...Wandering? Wandered?...

Might get locked.

Post Reply