"A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Debian

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Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

Postby golinux » 2017-08-03 16:25

/tmp wrote:My dislike of the "Veteran Unix Admins" has to do with the Network World article's citations of what constitutes a "good admin." As someone whom works with end users directly it is incredibly insulting to immediately assume that it's always the end user's fault for an issue, or no "true" admin uses anything other than vi. My quarrel is with the idea of using the ideas espoused in said article as the cornerstone of a new system.
Could you please post a link to the Network World article that you have referenced several times? (It's always good to include sources of information.) I think that I have seen the list that you are talking about but can't remember it being associated with Devuan. I'll be happy to search the archives and let you know what I find.

BTW I am the last thing from being a 'VUA' - mostly a desktop GuiGirl - and that has not been an impediment to my use of or extensive involvement with Devuan.
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Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

Postby dasein » 2017-08-03 16:53

Golinux, let me try to help clarify a couple of points. But first, you have to be able to "decode" what passes for logic in the OP's mind.

What he's saying is something along these lines (paraphrasing):
I don't like the traits attributed to a particular group by a particular author in a particular article, and I'm using that as a justification for a pig-headed prejudice that has absolutely no basis in, y'know, reality.

Whatever you do...

1) don't take notice of the fact that this is merely one person's "take" on the group in question; treat the contents of the article as immutable fact, along the lines of Newton's Laws.

2) don't take notice of the fact that this article was written years before Devuan was even formed/forked. So even if the article in question were carved in stone by the firey finger of the divine, it absolutely does not apply to the question as posed.

3) do not, do NOT, DO not notice that my "question" isn't a question at all. It's 100% pure troll-bait and this thread should be allowed to die off as quickly as possible.

Clearer now is it? ;-)

tl;dr: Just another systemd troll thread. Nothing to see here. Please move along.
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Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

Postby /tmp » 2017-08-03 16:54

golinux wrote:
/tmp wrote:My dislike of the "Veteran Unix Admins" has to do with the Network World article's citations of what constitutes a "good admin." As someone whom works with end users directly it is incredibly insulting to immediately assume that it's always the end user's fault for an issue, or no "true" admin uses anything other than vi. My quarrel is with the idea of using the ideas espoused in said article as the cornerstone of a new system.
Could you please post a link to the Network World article that you have referenced several times? (It's always good to include sources of information.) I think that I have seen the list that you are talking about but can't remember it being associated with Devuan. I'll be happy to search the archives and let you know what I find.

BTW I am the last thing from being a 'VUA' - mostly a desktop GuiGirl - and that has not been an impediment to my use of or extensive involvement with Devuan.


Sure! Here's the article in question.
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Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

Postby /tmp » 2017-08-03 17:01

dasein wrote:tl;dr: Just another systemd troll thread. Nothing to see here. Please move along.


The thread title is in reference to me not breaking up the technical infrastructure of a proposed non-profit as I would prefer to keep a unified Free Software foundation for the whole of the effort.
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Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

Postby golinux » 2017-08-03 20:06

/tmp wrote:
golinux wrote:
/tmp wrote:My dislike of the "Veteran Unix Admins" has to do with the Network World article's citations of what constitutes a "good admin."
Could you please post a link to the Network World article that you have referenced several times?
Sure! Here's the article in question.
And what ties that article to Devuan? In fact the footnote says:
This story, "Nine traits of the veteran Unix admin," was originally published at InfoWorld.com.
And that was in 2011 long before the fork when we were all happily using Debian. I always saw it as tongue-in-cheek satire. Maybe your reading comprehension needs a upgrade . . .
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Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

Postby HuangLao » 2017-08-03 20:38

Image

Next people will say the article was about Slackware that year they came out with a non-systemd version.
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Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

Postby pcalvert » 2017-08-03 22:22

/tmp wrote:I'm focusing on making the system independent of systemd.

That rules out Debian then. However, you may want to consider doing what I did. You could use live-build to build a customized Debian live CD/DVD that uses sysvinit instead of systemd. It won't be totally systemd-free, though, because some systemd packages must be pulled in to satisfy dependencies. If you use Debian Jessie as your base, it will be fairly easy to convert those systems to Devuan Jessie in the future, should you choose to do so.

The systemd packages my Debian live CD contains are:
libpam-systemd
libsystemd0
systemd
systemd-shim

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Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

Postby golinux » 2017-08-03 22:32

pcalvert wrote:The systemd packages my Debian live CD contains are:
libpam-systemd
libsystemd0
systemd
systemd-shim

Phil
And my Devuan only has (for the moment):
libsystemd0.

If there were more people rebuilding packages to remove the unnecessary dependencies, that could be removed too.
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Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

Postby /tmp » 2017-08-04 11:46

golinux wrote:
This story, "Nine traits of the veteran Unix admin," was originally published at InfoWorld.com.
And that was in 2011 long before the fork when we were all happily using Debian.


Fair enough; I was basing this off of something someone offline had mentioned to me in conversation.
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Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

Postby /tmp » 2017-08-04 11:47

HuangLao wrote:Image

Next people will say the article was about Slackware that year they came out with a non-systemd version.


I enjoy your use of ad-hominem instead of sound judgement; your contribution is greatly appreciated to the sum of human knowledge.
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Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

Postby HuangLao » 2017-08-04 18:44

/tmp wrote:
HuangLao wrote:Image

Next people will say the article was about Slackware that year they came out with a non-systemd version.


I enjoy your use of ad-hominem instead of sound judgement; your contribution is greatly appreciated to the sum of human knowledge.


you're most welcome Lennart. as someone who has been around since some of the earliest days of Unix im sure others will agree the later part of your comment. :mrgreen: Actually, it was less ad-hominem and more argumentum ad verecundiam, but I digress and leave you with ad rem. Oxford will be your friend now.
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Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

Postby Wheelerof4te » 2017-08-04 19:01

OP, why don't you explain to us what is the point of this thread once again? What do you want with this?
Maybe then we will avoid trolling and off-topic talk. Surely that will be in your best interest, no?
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Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

Postby deborah-and-ian » 2017-08-05 11:43

If the point is to have a stable foundation, then I don't think you could go wrong with either. On the one hand, Debian might still have a few system quirks, which are understandable as this init system is much younger than sysvrc and also does a lot more than just the init part. On the other, Devuan might still have a few quirks with offering replacements to software which depends on systemd or making sure that their alternatives work as intended -- since it's, well, still a young distro. But I think that both distros value the tenets of offering a stable, "don't break what's running well" sort of system.

But that's not the only point, right? You're educating people about open source software and, if they can't run Gnome or other software on Devuan properly, then they might miss out on a very popular piece of software.
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Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

Postby golinux » 2017-08-05 20:15

deborah-and-ian wrote:You're educating people about open source software and, if they can't run Gnome or other software on Devuan properly, then they might miss out on a very popular piece of software.
Of course whatever is 'popular' if it's the default (with an eye to lock-in down the road). That plus, Linux users these days are more 'submissive' than they used to be . . .
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Re: "A House Divided...": Preventing the breaking up of Deb

Postby deborah-and-ian » 2017-08-05 20:33

golinux wrote:
deborah-and-ian wrote:You're educating people about open source software and, if they can't run Gnome or other software on Devuan properly, then they might miss out on a very popular piece of software.
Of course whatever is 'popular' if it's the default (with an eye to lock-in down the road). That plus, Linux users these days are more 'submissive' than they used to be . . .

Oh, golinux, making a conspiracy of everything. And as a true conspiracy theorist, you're apt at putting words into my mouth I never intended with my post you've quoted. No words were uttered about the alleged default state of Gnome. It is however a popular desktop environment and, like it or not, beyond your hobbyist use of Linux, Gnome and KDE enjoy a wide use in e.g. companies or organisations which already use free software. Knowing your way around a Gnome desktop is not a futile lesson to teach then.

There is also nothing about submission there, but the students should be free to explore all possibilities and then make their own choice. Small tip: If you want to get people to Devuan's side, then maybe calling them submissive (or ridiculing them in other ways) just because they're curious about software you wouldn't use is the wrong way of doing it.

Education about free software should be free in its ideas as well. Posing your conspiracy theories about Red Hat, Gnome or systemd as the only truth is dangerous and limits the choices of others to find out about other opinions. Your approach is IMHO very toxic and anti-social, which is why I hope /tmp will take a more diplomatic and mature way to teach their students.
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