Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL looms

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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby HuangLao » 2017-08-21 16:58

great chart bulkley. it is very telling, also interesting to note how many distros over time have moved more and more under the RedHat umbrella.

So many distros have come and gone over the decades, yet, RedHat, Debian and Slackware remain, even SuSe started out as a German version of Slackware.
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby HuangLao » 2017-08-21 17:00

Garry, I was hoping the thread would be open to discuss any distro not using systemd. :)
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby GarryRicketson » 2017-08-21 17:12

by HuangLao » 2017-08-21 11:00
Garry, I was hoping the thread would be open to discuss any distro not using systemd

Ok, thanks, glad to hear that.

pylkko wrote:minix3 doesn't support dual core processors or threading.


Well, sort of , but it can be installed on machines with dual core processers,
BUT it will only use 1 core. I have a "dual core processer" machine, but never have needed both core processors, only use one.
If any one is interested:
https://www.usenix.org/legacy/publications/login/2010-06/openpdfs/tanenbaum.pdf
Also this: https://developers.slashdot.org/story/14/09/16/1348208/new-release-of-minix-3-for-x86-and-arm-is-netbsd-compatible
I must admit, and apologize though. If one needs a option that includes many features, and desktop utilities, DE, etc,.. right out of the box, Minix 3 would not be a good option.
If one wants a base that they can use to build a system, and has the skill, it is a good starting point.
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby Funkygoby » 2017-08-22 08:58

HuangLao,
Thank You for your description more detailed than a simple "SW is a BSD-ish Linux"

I abandonned distro-hoping in 2008 but yet, your posts pushed me to try Slackware in a VM. I liked it but I am not sure wich one to choose between OBSD and Slack.
With OBSD, after installing certains packages (such as python3 or xfce4), the package manager prompt you with some guidelines. For python3, it explains how to set it as the default interpreter. For xfce4, it explains how to activate shutdown, restart, etc ... You can find those guidelines in /usr/local/share/doc/pkg-readmes/ and examples in /etc/examples/
There is the faq that is very helpful and should be read at least once. And we have "Absolute OpenBSD 2nd ed."

What would you recommend as a doc for new-comers so they can set there DE, wifi, etc ...?

Now a word about 2 BSDes.
OBSD pros: docs (like the best ever), clean code (implies security, ease of use, easier to master), dictatorship (focused objectives. Won't go loose after some years), simple but efficient tools (pf, doas, sndio, pledge ... not to mention the classics: openssh, libressl), thinkpad friendly.
OBSD cons: smaller community less ports, less stuff, less crap I guess. Not perfs inclined, i guess this is due to clean code (no dirty optimizations).

FreeBSD pros would be: lots of ports, doc is good too (the handbook). Lot's of stuff, several firewall, bhyve, jails, zfs, linux compat, etc... (that can be bad too)
FBSD cons: couldn't get suspend/resume to work. It seems for fitted to workstations, servers, VM
PCBSD: This is ubuntized-freebsd. Too much stuff and doesn't solve the shortcomings I had with FBSD (suspend/resume)
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby Lysander » 2017-08-22 09:27

Funkygoby wrote:I abandonned distro-hoping in 2008 but yet, your posts pushed me to try Slackware in a VM.


Well, I am in the same boat. I have got Slackware installed on a VM and am trialling it out this week.

I really like it so far and, once one has got the hang of package installation, it's a breeze.

I am having some issues such as [I note these for interest, they are not support requests]

- KDE is beautiful but slow/won't shut down or restart properly, however, I think this is because I only allocated 1GB of RAM to the VM [and 512MB swap]. I think KDE would need a lot more than that in a proper install [e.g. my Debian install has 5GB RAM and 3GB swap].

- I haven't worked out how to get sudo working yet [or more specifically how to create a password for sudo user]

I am very interested in this distro but if it doesn't work out for me I will stick with Debian. If it does, this will be my last hop for a good while.
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby runfrodorun » 2017-08-22 13:35

You can still /run/ sysvinit in Jessie and Stretch, however, as I'm sure somebody has pointed out here, you will not escape libsystemd0 so you aren't really fully systemd-free.

As this is an important issue to me, here's my findings:

gentoo
slackware
devuan
crux
*bsd
*solaris/anything illumos based
plan9

or roll up your own userland. not as bad as it sounds if you are talented enough.

all these systems are decently usable, maybe plan9 being on the edge of that. For a laptop I find I have had the best luck sticking with linux because the ACPI support etc. just seems to have worked better in my experience, all though I was FreeBSD-ing on my T41 for a while before it died.

For the most part, I'm still running stock debian but just selecting sysvinit-core and turning a blind eye to libsystemd0. I haven't reimaged my machines in years and didn't see a big enough reason to do it yet, but don't take that as a sign of satisfaction. I'm still very unhappy about the violently political systemd takeover.
Much opinionated.
Some abrasive.
No systemd.
Wow.
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby HuangLao » 2017-08-22 17:43

Lysander wrote:
Funkygoby wrote:I abandonned distro-hoping in 2008 but yet, your posts pushed me to try Slackware in a VM.


Well, I am in the same boat. I have got Slackware installed on a VM and am trialling it out this week.

I really like it so far and, once one has got the hang of package installation, it's a breeze.

I am having some issues such as [I note these for interest, they are not support requests]

- KDE is beautiful but slow/won't shut down or restart properly, however, I think this is because I only allocated 1GB of RAM to the VM [and 512MB swap]. I think KDE would need a lot more than that in a proper install [e.g. my Debian install has 5GB RAM and 3GB swap].

- I haven't worked out how to get sudo working yet [or more specifically how to create a password for sudo user]

I am very interested in this distro but if it doesn't work out for me I will stick with Debian. If it does, this will be my last hop for a good while.


yeah, KDE is lighter then it was but in comparison to the hippo it used to be its still heavy. 1GB of RAM would be better for Xfce or a WM. There is LXDE or even LXQt in slackbuilds.org or you can use prebuilt binaries from Salix or AlienBobs repo (a slackware dev. Eric H.).

aliens x86 repo: http://slackware.uk/people/alien/sbrepos/14.2/x86_64/
alien restricted repo (vlc with codecs) http://slackware.uk/people/alien/restri ... .2/x86_64/
alien kde 5 packages: http://slackware.uk/people/alien-kde/14.2/5/x86_64/

Keep in mind aliens repos do not track dependencies, so read the info/readme for the main package and it will list the dependencies. His VLC package has all the dependencies included in the package. Just install VLC and you get everything it needs including codecs.

If you are going to use repos other than main slackware that comes in install, then install slackpkg+ which is an extension for slackpkg that allows third party repos. https://alien.slackbook.org/blog/introd ... ositories/

Of course, you could also use slapt-get on Slackware and get the packages from Salix. ;) Happy Slacking.
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby HuangLao » 2017-08-22 17:45

runfrodorun wrote:You can still /run/ sysvinit in Jessie and Stretch, however, as I'm sure somebody has pointed out here, you will not escape libsystemd0 so you aren't really fully systemd-free.

As this is an important issue to me, here's my findings:

gentoo
slackware
devuan
crux
*bsd
*solaris/anything illumos based
plan9

or roll up your own userland. not as bad as it sounds if you are talented enough.

all these systems are decently usable, maybe plan9 being on the edge of that. For a laptop I find I have had the best luck sticking with linux because the ACPI support etc. just seems to have worked better in my experience, all though I was FreeBSD-ing on my T41 for a while before it died.

For the most part, I'm still running stock debian but just selecting sysvinit-core and turning a blind eye to libsystemd0. I haven't reimaged my machines in years and didn't see a big enough reason to do it yet, but don't take that as a sign of satisfaction. I'm still very unhappy about the violently political systemd takeover.


quite true about Jessie and Stretch, however, as Debian goes further down the systemd rabbit hole and makes their packages with hard dependencies on systemd, the future of Debian and non-systemd does not look too good.
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby HuangLao » 2017-08-22 18:06

I forgot all about this thread on LQ, some might find it beneficial:
https://www.linuxquestions.org/question ... 175608156/
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby runfrodorun » 2017-08-22 18:07

HuangLao wrote:
runfrodorun wrote:You can still /run/ sysvinit in Jessie and Stretch, however, as I'm sure somebody has pointed out here, you will not escape libsystemd0 so you aren't really fully systemd-free.

As this is an important issue to me, here's my findings:

gentoo
slackware
devuan
crux
*bsd
*solaris/anything illumos based
plan9

or roll up your own userland. not as bad as it sounds if you are talented enough.

all these systems are decently usable, maybe plan9 being on the edge of that. For a laptop I find I have had the best luck sticking with linux because the ACPI support etc. just seems to have worked better in my experience, all though I was FreeBSD-ing on my T41 for a while before it died.

For the most part, I'm still running stock debian but just selecting sysvinit-core and turning a blind eye to libsystemd0. I haven't reimaged my machines in years and didn't see a big enough reason to do it yet, but don't take that as a sign of satisfaction. I'm still very unhappy about the violently political systemd takeover.


quite true about Jessie and Stretch, however, as Debian goes further down the systemd rabbit hole and makes their packages with hard dependencies on systemd, the future of Debian and non-systemd does not look too good.


You are exactly right. Hope I didn't imply otherwise!

Has anyone considered making a fake libsystemd0 with stub functions just to satisfy the requirement? I haven't bothered looking at the source code yet, but depending on how useless it is when running a non-systemd init system, maybe we could roll up our own package and just deal with a few broken things for the time being?
Much opinionated.
Some abrasive.
No systemd.
Wow.
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby deborah-and-ian » 2017-08-22 18:34

runfrodorun wrote:
Has anyone considered making a fake libsystemd0 with stub functions just to satisfy the requirement? I haven't bothered looking at the source code yet, but depending on how useless it is when running a non-systemd init system, maybe we could roll up our own package and just deal with a few broken things for the time being?


Like systemd-shim? This wasn't successful, though I don't really know why. I think Devuan's approach is more prudent: remove all systemd stuff and dependencies, offer some usable desktop that works without systemd, like e.g. Xfce.
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby HuangLao » 2017-08-22 18:41

this can be achieved with empty systemd files/folders as well. some programs just need to think systemd is there, has no way of actually confirming other than looking for a file name etc... ;)

but its mainly up to packagers and maintainers, if they don't build with hard systemd dependencies then it can be avoided. Main exception is Gnome which is well, another topic all together. :mrgreen:
Last edited by HuangLao on 2017-08-22 18:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby ruffwoof » 2017-08-22 18:42

I like systemD. Has worked really well for me as a desktop user. I've tried FreeBSD for a while and it soon became apparent of the benefits of systemD's parallel/modular structure. i.e. FreeBSD set to auto login and start X, on a jwm/pcmanfm --desktop base together with Brightside and OpenOffice installed ... periodically throws a wobbly when repeatedly exit X and/or jwm -restart. I did start adding code to exit X cleanly and adding sleeps etc. to try and avoid the periodic race conditions, but then simply just dropped it altogether and reverted to primary booting Debian Jessie again ... where it all just works (thanks to systemd's modular and signalling (depends on ...etc.).

Remember that something had to supercede linear sysV and SysD is just one of several choices. A reasonable choice IMO would be to upgrade wheezy that has fallen out of oldstable ... to the new oldstable (Jessie) and give sysD a try for yourself. It seems odd at first due to the different layout/structure, but after the initial steep learning curve relatively quickly the benefits of the modularity/parallelism become apparent.

I've adopted tracking oldstable as my primary boot as by the time oldstable starts the base repository is both stable as in unchanging and stable as in rock solid stability ... whilst still being security patched when necessary. Older (extensively tried and tested) versions of programs and hardware I can live with comfortably.

Swapping out to anything else is a negative move IMO as Debian tops the list in size of base system/repository (single provider). I use Main alone ... with just two exceptions (jwm backported and a external single program from a source I trust). I haven't even imported nvidia as the base debian supplied nouveau works great for me.

Jessie works great and whilst I have tried it briefly with sysV init I reverted back again as I saw no benefit, only risk in sticking with that. Jessie will work well for the next couple of years or so of its oldstable lifetime, thereafter the indications are that Stretch (falling into oldstable around that time) will equally serve well. I suspect that many who have stuck with Wheezy through its oldstable lifetime to the present date would more prefer that "tracking oldstable" path overall.
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby HuangLao » 2017-08-22 18:53

ruffwoof wrote:I like systemD. Has worked really well for me as a desktop user. I've tried FreeBSD for a while and it soon became apparent of the benefits of systemD's parallel/modular structure. i.e. FreeBSD set to auto login and start X, on a jwm/pcmanfm --desktop base together with Brightside and OpenOffice installed ... periodically throws a wobbly when repeatedly exit X and/or jwm -restart. I did start adding code to exit X cleanly and adding sleeps etc. to try and avoid the periodic race conditions, but then simply just dropped it altogether and reverted to primary booting Debian Jessie again ... where it all just works (thanks to systemd's modular and signalling (depends on ...etc.).

Remember that something had to supercede linear sysV and SysD is just one of several choices. A reasonable choice IMO would be to upgrade wheezy that has fallen out of oldstable ... to the new oldstable (Jessie) and give sysD a try for yourself. It seems odd at first due to the different layout/structure, but after the initial steep learning curve relatively quickly the benefits of the modularity/parallelism become apparent.

I've adopted tracking oldstable as my primary boot as by the time oldstable starts the base repository is both stable as in unchanging and stable as in rock solid stability ... whilst still being security patched when necessary. Older (extensively tried and tested) versions of programs and hardware I can live with comfortably.

Swapping out to anything else is a negative move IMO as Debian tops the list in size of base system/repository (single provider). I use Main alone ... with just two exceptions (jwm backported and a external single program from a source I trust). I haven't even imported nvidia as the base debian supplied nouveau works great for me.

Jessie works great and whilst I have tried it briefly with sysV init I reverted back again as I saw no benefit, only risk in sticking with that. Jessie will work well for the next couple of years or so of its oldstable lifetime, thereafter the indications are that Stretch (falling into oldstable around that time) will equally serve well. I suspect that many who have stuck with Wheezy through its oldstable lifetime to the present date would more prefer that "tracking oldstable" path overall.



LOL about something had to supersede sysv, Slackware still uses BSD style init, which predates sysv. lets not turn this into a pro or anti systemd thread, for it will surely be locked. Also, not the right thread to be pro-systemd or to convince people to use it, as the thread is for information pertinent to those who do not want it and are currently using wheezy etc.....
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby anticapitalista » 2017-08-22 19:14

If you want Debian stretch or later without systemd and without libsystemd0, why not try antiX?
I haven't tried it but adding antiX repos to Debian 9 might get a (lib)systemd-free 'vanilla' Debian as well.
(Only attempt this if you really know what you are doing and you do not expect support)
Last edited by anticapitalista on 2017-08-22 19:24, edited 1 time in total.
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