Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL looms

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Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL looms

Postby HuangLao » 2017-08-16 20:56

Well I was asked to start a thread for those using Wheezy and are fast approaching EOL, and do not want to use or would rather not use the new systemd OS.

Easiest options, perhaps:
switch to Devuan
https://devuan.org/

or MXLinux
https://mxlinux.org/mx-linux

perhaps antiX Linux for those wanting WM's and not DE's
http://antix.mepis.org/index.php?title=Main_Page

If you are someone who values longevity and sees experience as something of great value then you might want to take a drive over to Slackware. Its the oldest actively maintained GNU/Linux distro, beats Debian by a few months. It is also a distro that has an expert maintainer at the helm, same person for 24 years (and yes there is a team of people that help develop and maintain it, it is no where near a "one man show" as some claim). Slackware and Salix are not going to leave the Linux scene any time soon! I cannot say the same for other distros out there.

Slackware Philosophy:

    A distribution that can be installed entirely offline with the CD/DVD set.
    -A distribution which is released when stable and not according to a fixed schedule. Every release of Slackware Linux is thoroughly tested by the Slackware team and the community. Slackware places high value on stability rather than the “newness” or “freshness” of software.
    -A distribution where “simplicity” is preferred over “convenience.” The lack of GUI helpers (common in many other commercial distributions) for system administration tasks is a case in point.
    -A distribution where system configuration and administration is done through simple ncurses helper scripts or by directly editing well-commented configuration files through a text editor.
    -A distribution that prefers to package “vanilla” software or software that hasn't been modified from upstream development. Little or no patching is done to upstream software and as a result, the software found in Slackware works as closely to what was intended by the original creators as practically possible.
    -A distribution that does not add layers of abstraction or complexity on top of existing solutions. For instance, Slackware package management is handled by simple scripts acting on compressed tarball package files (*.tgz, *.txz, *.tbz) and there is no dependency handling for package management.
    -A distribution which abides by the common-sense dictum “if it's not broken, don't fix it.”
    -A distribution where the major decisions are taken by the BDFL (Benevolent Dictator for Life, the current chief maintainer Patrick Volkerding) and where the development process is more closed than purely community based distributions. As a result, Slackware is highly focused on its core strengths and values and does not cater to every preference of its community or others. For this reason, there is less pressure on the Slackware development team to be popular and cater to the larger mass market.

Now for some the fact that Slackware does not manage dependencies automatically might be alarming or scary, for Slackers it is usually seen as a blessing. There are many ways to include auto dependency management.

About Salix

Salix is a GNU/Linux distribution based on Slackware that is simple, fast and easy to use, with stability being a primary goal. Salix is also fully backwards compatible with Slackware, so Slackware users can benefit from Salix repositories, which they can use as an "extra" quality source of software for their favorite distribution. Like a bonsai, Salix is small, light & the product of infinite care.

Features

    -one application per task on the installation ISO
    -fully backwards compatible with Slackware
    -optimized for desktop usage
    -high quality package repositories with dependency support
    -incredibly fast package tools
    -simple & fully localized system administration tools
    nice artwork
    -supports 32-bit and 64-bit architectures


Salix can be used as its own distro, or Slackware users can use the Salix repos as an added /extra repo for high quality binary packages, thus greatly reducing the need to build packages from source. Building from source is extremely easy on Slackware and Salix, however, as all of the libraries and build mechanisms are either installed during the initial installation or are brought in as needed for the package you want to build.

A great benefit in Slackware is the philosophy of "vanilla packages", many security flaws and bugs are often introduced by package maintainers and distro dev's making custom patches that upstream has no clue about. For instance, if *buntu makes a custom patch to a package (pick any, OpenSSL perhaps cough cough Debian), that patch can create a security hole that no-one knows about, if however, they stick to upstream code then it generally reduces the risk of holes and increases the likelihood of holes being fixed much more quickly since you are using the same package that the original developer created. This is one reason why Slackware/SalixOS do not have anywhere near as many updates as other distro's. Most of those other distros are patching their own patches.

In many ways Slackware/SalixOS is what Devuan is trying to do, but has the robust infrastructure and know-how in place for over 24 years. It sticks to solid Unix principles and anchors what GNU/Linux is/was. In many ways Slackware is becoming the default Linux, as the other distros morph into this new systemdOS.

Perhaps the old saying of "If you want to learn RedHat use RedHat, if you want to learn Linux use Slackware" should be changed to "If you want to learn Linux use Slackware, if you want to learn systemdOS then use another distro".

If you have any questions feel free ask here or send me a message or ask over at LinuxQuestions.org or the forum for Salixos (forum.salixos.org). I will update this post as needed. This was a quick first draft so to speak. :wink:

PS: an after thought, Slackware dev.'s are very active on LinuxQuestions.org and Salix dev's are active on their forum, I guess I could include that as another benefit, direct contact with the developers and maintainers. :D

Ref: https://salixos.org/
Salix Reviews https://forum.salixos.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7351

http://www.slackware.com/
https://docs.slackware.com/slackware:philosophy
https://docs.slackware.com/toc:start
https://www.linuxquestions.org/question ... xt-644746/
http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/10-thi ... -a-chance/
Slackware dev. team member: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh2eah5L4b8
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby Nili » 2017-08-16 21:27

Very nice post HuangLao, Thank you for taking the time to write this valuable topic.
I made some attempts but I did not succeed due to my lack of knowledge, so I fell on a short road by Installing Devuan.

Well i use Debian aswell as secondary, i can't let go my favorite distro even if it use systemd which i don't like.

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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby Wheelerof4te » 2017-08-16 21:35

For those of you who want to try something new other than Linux, there is FreeBSD or some other BSD derived OS:

https://www.freebsd.org/ - for general purpose stable systems, FreeBSD to BSD is like Debian to .deb based GNU/Linux.
https://www.trueos.org/ - if you want to have OTB desktop, think of BSD version of Ubuntu or Linux Mint.
https://www.openbsd.org/- don't know much about this one, they say it's a hardened version of BSD.

EDIT September 12th: I do not endorse installing, or even attempting to install OpenBSD. It's installer is hard to use, and what's worse, does not warn you when it's actually formating your disk. It doesn't even give you a last chance to prevent it, something FreeBSD does. It cost me my Windows OS. Good news is that I'm using GNU/Linux now and that I won't ever touch OpenBSD again.
/end of EDIT

There are others like NetBSD and GhostBSD, but for new users willing to learn, FreeBSD or TrueOS are the ones recommended.
Last edited by Wheelerof4te on 2017-09-12 17:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby GarryRicketson » 2017-08-16 22:01

After trying it on a VM for over a year, I switched to OpneBsd, been using OpenBsd now for about 2 months, on my desktop PC , and here, just started:
Powered with OpenBsd

It is amazingly simple to install, installing packages is also so easy. The documentation and manuals are also very extensive, clear and straightforward, easy to follow.
After trying various others on VM's, including some of the other Linux ones listed here,
I ended up deciding on OpneBsd, it just works, and has everything I need, and does not have anything I don't need, or want.
Out of the box, it is a base system , that works. If one needs/wants additional packages they are easily installed.
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby HuangLao » 2017-08-17 00:01

I have FreeBSD and openBSD on VM's. both are quite nice and if (God forbid) anything ever happened to Slackware and I did not want to just continue where Slackware left off, then FreeBSD would be an option.

I consider Slackware a bridge between both worlds, it is the most Unix like Linux distro and has many things in common with BSD's, including the structure of init /etc/rc.d, concept of releasing a complete system that you can do whatever you want with etc.... https://slackbuilds.org/ acts as a bit of a ports like system for extra packages for those that want to build from source. The concept of SlackBuilds is ridiculously easy, allows one to upgrade any package to latest version or downgrade to earlier version without impacting the package manager or overall system at all. :) PV, builds Slackware with SlackBuild scripts. He even includes all of his scripts, so everything is out in the open.

This is a helpful tool for making building packages even easier from SlackBuilds.org.
https://sbopkg.org/

or if you want a port like system then use:
https://slackbuilds.org/repository/14.2 ... /sbotools/

I prefer sbopkg or slapt-src which depends on slapt-get (gslapt is the graphical version, Sourcery is the graphical version of slapt-src).
http://software.jaos.org/

In Salix slapt-get, slapt-src, gslapt, and sourcery are all included at install, in Slackware you have to add those after install.
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby HuangLao » 2017-08-17 00:04

Eric (Alien Bob) Hameleers (one of the Slackware dev's) created a Slackware Live project for those that want to test Slackware without installing, you cannot install from it, only test drive it.
https://alien.slackbook.org/blog/slackw ... e-edition/

Salix has both live and install versions: and you can install from the live version as well (I prefer installing from the installer version but I am old fashioned).
https://salixos.org/download.html
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby Lysander » 2017-08-17 09:02

HuangLao, thank you very much indeed for making this topic. I have done quite a bit of reading as the arguments against systemd, though at present none of them is enough to make me move over from Debian*.

Having said that, I do have an interest in Slackware and have done for a long time. That alone will be enough to make me move over one day. I will read more and post back if I have any comments or queries.

EDIT: It would be good to include a little more info on MX Linux here from those who have used it

e.g.
- How easy [or not] is it to install?
- What package management system does it use?
- What distro is it based on?
- What DEs are available?
- Is there a wiki and a forum?

Now, I know that I could answer some of these myself by searching, but I list these to show what a discussion on MX could include, for the purposes of keeping things in one place/post.

*though a large number of seasoned Linux users seem to detest it and are moving on from their systemd-istros.
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby ruffwoof » 2017-08-17 11:54

Wheelerof4te wrote:For those of you who want to try something new other than Linux, there is FreeBSD or some other BSD derived OS:

https://www.freebsd.org/ - for general purpose stable systems, FreeBSD to BSD is like Debian to .deb based GNU/Linux.
https://www.trueos.org/ - if you want to have OTB desktop, think of BSD version of Ubuntu or Linux Mint.
https://www.openbsd.org/- don't know much about this one, they say it's a hardened version of BSD.

There are others like NetBSD and GhostBSD, but for new users willing to learn, FreeBSD or TrueOS are the ones recommended.

TrueOS sounds a bit unstable ... based on Current rather than Release (i.e has opted to track the cutting edge latest, but the more inclined to break).

I have dual boot of Debian Stretch and FreeBSD options, both desktops set up near the exact same, but where FreeBSD has the later versions of programs. Excepting a few visual indicators it would be hard to tell whether I was running one or the other, they both work well (at least for my desktop needs).

Of the two I suspect FreeBSD is the more inclined to break. Later version of a program pulled in maybe having dependency/conflicts with other programs resulting in undesirable outcome. Under Debian I stick with Main repositories only, which are less inclined to have conflicts (more stable versions of program combinations ... but older versions). I can't say that I really need any of the features that later versions of programs tend to bring/provide (mostly content with what's provided in older versions).

Barring those differences, whether to boot systemD (Debian) or FreeBSD (non systemD) boils down to more of a political choice. Personally I'm not swayed either way and just prefer what works best for me, and IMO Debian Stable/Main has the edge. Should I be politically motivated? Well One Unix is No Choice, so perhaps yes. But equally too many variants ... too much choice, is wasteful, lots of replication and confusion.

I'm posting using FreeBSD at present. A relatively new venture for me, but one that I suspect will be modest in duration before some upgrade breaks the system and I again return to booting Debian 99.9% of the time.
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby Lysander » 2017-08-17 12:07

ruffwoof wrote: Should I be politically motivated?


Well, I suppose it depends how much it matters to you. I know, for some here, politics plays a big part in their intention to move on. For me, productivity > politics [spoken like a true ex-Windows user].

As a side-note, I would expect some discussion of systemd to occur within this topic. I think such is both necessary and unavoidable, as long as the OP, in his kindness, continues to update the first post as necessary.
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby ruffwoof » 2017-08-17 14:23

For me, productivity > politics

+1

A unique feature AFAIK is that Debian stable repository keeps the same programs for multiple years. Selected such that they work well with each other generally no matter what blend you combine into your own system. Which means that updates rarely break the system (I've not encountered any update issues). Personally I came from XP ... that I'd used for many years and only dropped it when MS pulled support. I don't want to have to down tools and fix the tool (system) because a update installed something that made the tool no longer work the way I expect. Adopt Stable shortly after release and that could continue to be used for 4 years or more ... through its stable -> oldstable lifetime. Which I would imagine those looking to update Wheezy at the present time would generally tend to prefer.

SystemD seems odd at first, but after a while of using it personally I like it a lot. Modular 'services' that you can adopt or write your own, and activate/deactivate easily, and set when to run (depends-on). Linear sysV in contrast involved having to drop in sleep 10 ... or whatever and hope that the linear timings all fitted in OK ... each and every time. Something parallel/modular was due to superceed linear SysV and SystemD is as good a choice as any. As ever buggy initially, but improves with time.

Devuan is perhaps the best choice of alternative as that still uses the Debian repositories ... however that installs a additional layer of risk of update conflicts that may break the system and having to down-tools to investigate/fix the issue. For me there's no difference in appearance/usage between sysV and systemD so there's no benefit, only risk in not using pure Debian.

I had intended to stick with Jessie through oldstable, but having tested Stretch I ended up adopting it recently. In Jessie I was using one backport (jwm) and upgrading to Stretch eliminates that such that I'm now running pure 100% Stretch Main repositories only. Great comfort in knowing that apt-get update;apt-get upgrade will work fine each and every time and having tried FreeBSD for a while its brought back memories of having to make sure you'd done a backup before running a upgrade ... just in case the upgrade turned into a downgrade.

Now for some the fact that Slackware does not manage dependencies automatically might be alarming or scary, for Slackers it is usually seen as a blessing. There are many ways to include auto dependency management.

Tempted to have a look at Slackware given your outline, not so keen on the sound of that lack of automated dependencies however. If I was updating from Wheezy at present I guess I'd be weighing up the pros/cons of either learning SystemD i.e. upgrading to Stretch or a whole new system/approach i.e. Slacko and naturally tending to take the path of least resistance (would be more inclined to stay with Debian). But again that's simply because I have no political motivation/inclination one way or the other.

Yet another alternative might be to upgrade Wheezy to Jessie ... that would provide a further 2 years+ of being security updated. And I believe you can boot Jessie using a SysV style init.
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby Bulkley » 2017-08-18 14:31

ruffwoof wrote:Tempted to have a look at Slackware given your outline, not so keen on the sound of that lack of automated dependencies however.


Me too. Debian for me has always been about package management. My introduction to Linux included several years of "dependency hell" and I have no urge to go back to it. It's bad enough for a package to require dependencies but some of those have dependencies of their own and some of those have . . . ; it drove me nuts. Give me apt-get any day.
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby Lysander » 2017-08-18 14:40

Bulkley wrote:
ruffwoof wrote:Tempted to have a look at Slackware given your outline, not so keen on the sound of that lack of automated dependencies however.


Me too. Debian for me has always been about package management. My introduction to Linux included several years of "dependency hell" and I have no urge to go back to it. It's bad enough for a package to require dependencies but some of those have dependencies of their own and some of those have . . . ; it drove me nuts. Give me apt-get any day.


Apparently Salix automatically manages dependencies, so it's one of the distro's I'm looking at. I just need to find out if it automatically installs packages like apt.

EDIT: looks like it does

http://people.salixos.org/djemos/startu ... Salix.html
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby HuangLao » 2017-08-18 17:41

ruffwoof wrote:
For me, productivity > politics

+1

A unique feature AFAIK is that Debian stable repository keeps the same programs for multiple years. Selected such that they work well with each other generally no matter what blend you combine into your own system. Which means that updates rarely break the system (I've not encountered any update issues). Personally I came from XP ... that I'd used for many years and only dropped it when MS pulled support. I don't want to have to down tools and fix the tool (system) because a update installed something that made the tool no longer work the way I expect. Adopt Stable shortly after release and that could continue to be used for 4 years or more ... through its stable -> oldstable lifetime. Which I would imagine those looking to update Wheezy at the present time would generally tend to prefer.

SystemD seems odd at first, but after a while of using it personally I like it a lot. Modular 'services' that you can adopt or write your own, and activate/deactivate easily, and set when to run (depends-on). Linear sysV in contrast involved having to drop in sleep 10 ... or whatever and hope that the linear timings all fitted in OK ... each and every time. Something parallel/modular was due to superceed linear SysV and SystemD is as good a choice as any. As ever buggy initially, but improves with time.

Devuan is perhaps the best choice of alternative as that still uses the Debian repositories ... however that installs a additional layer of risk of update conflicts that may break the system and having to down-tools to investigate/fix the issue. For me there's no difference in appearance/usage between sysV and systemD so there's no benefit, only risk in not using pure Debian.

I had intended to stick with Jessie through oldstable, but having tested Stretch I ended up adopting it recently. In Jessie I was using one backport (jwm) and upgrading to Stretch eliminates that such that I'm now running pure 100% Stretch Main repositories only. Great comfort in knowing that apt-get update;apt-get upgrade will work fine each and every time and having tried FreeBSD for a while its brought back memories of having to make sure you'd done a backup before running a upgrade ... just in case the upgrade turned into a downgrade.

Now for some the fact that Slackware does not manage dependencies automatically might be alarming or scary, for Slackers it is usually seen as a blessing. There are many ways to include auto dependency management.

Tempted to have a look at Slackware given your outline, not so keen on the sound of that lack of automated dependencies however. If I was updating from Wheezy at present I guess I'd be weighing up the pros/cons of either learning SystemD i.e. upgrading to Stretch or a whole new system/approach i.e. Slacko and naturally tending to take the path of least resistance (would be more inclined to stay with Debian). But again that's simply because I have no political motivation/inclination one way or the other.

Yet another alternative might be to upgrade Wheezy to Jessie ... that would provide a further 2 years+ of being security updated. And I believe you can boot Jessie using a SysV style init.


Ok regarding Slackware and dependencies. All dependencies are taken care by Slackware team, when you install Slackware there are no unmet dependencies of anything in Slackware. Now if you want a program thats not included in Slackware you have a few options:
1) install slapt-get which works very similar to apt-get and use the SalixOS repos, use slapt-src for building programs from source which also tracks dependencies.
2) programs not included in Slackware do not have many dependencies because the programs are not split into many tiny sub programs, for instance to install gnucash on Debian brings in about 60 dependencies if I remember correctly, on Slackware it needs only 5 (see here: https://slackbuilds.org/repository/14.2/office/gnucash/).
3) the community and dev. team offer slackbuilds.org which is a repository of slackbuild scripts to build programs from source, any dependencies are listed and included in the repo.
4) there is a program called sbopkg that allows you to create a build que so all dependencies are included.
5) dependency hell does not exist on Slackware or Salix, again there are very few dependencies, most of what we consider dependencies are put there by packagers of other distros not the dev.'s of the original program, again see example of gnucash.
6) Salix is setup to be very easy to use, if you use Salix then slapt-get and slapt-src come preinstalled and setup with proper repos.
7) Slackware needs a little manual setup once installed but then is very easy to use.
8. Slack team currently is still providing security updates for versions from 8 years ago :) So LTS is there.

PS: regarding systemd, its more then political and philosophical, its an attempt to turn Linux into something it was not designed to be. Slackware stays the most true to its Unix roots, still uses BSD style init, and if you like you can add sysv, personally I prefer BSD style init because it is so logical-neat-orderly and simple etc....

PSS: Slackware and Salix dev's have scipt generators if you want to create your own custom scripts. :o
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby HuangLao » 2017-08-18 17:47

Bulkley wrote:
ruffwoof wrote:Tempted to have a look at Slackware given your outline, not so keen on the sound of that lack of automated dependencies however.


Me too. Debian for me has always been about package management. My introduction to Linux included several years of "dependency hell" and I have no urge to go back to it. It's bad enough for a package to require dependencies but some of those have dependencies of their own and some of those have . . . ; it drove me nuts. Give me apt-get any day.


See prior post, no dependency hell in Slackware, all dependencies are included with Slackware packages during install. slackbuilds.org or Salix repos makes extra packages a piece of cake. Another benefit of not "tracking dependencies" so too speak, is you can upgrade, remove or modify any package and the package manager does not care, the program works, the system works life goes on. Its the most no fuss no muss distro. because it was designed to remain simple always. again reference gnucash on debian versus Slackware, 5 or 6 dependencies version close to 60+. I can upgrade any package at any time and not wait for a package maintainer to do so or to say well wait for the next distro release because everything is frozen. Im currently using claws-mail 3.15, only had to rebuild libetpan and claws-mail, and guess what claws-mail includes all of those plugins that Debian and others split out into separate packages. :) slapt-get -remove ....does not gut half the OS, it removes whatever you type in and only that, or for Slackware slackpkg -remove.

Eric (alien bob, Slackware Dev.) and Robbie W. (Slackware dev.) also provide repos with prebuilt binaries of the programs they use the most and they update them to their current versions. ;)
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby HuangLao » 2017-08-18 17:50

Lysander wrote:
Bulkley wrote:
ruffwoof wrote:Tempted to have a look at Slackware given your outline, not so keen on the sound of that lack of automated dependencies however.


Me too. Debian for me has always been about package management. My introduction to Linux included several years of "dependency hell" and I have no urge to go back to it. It's bad enough for a package to require dependencies but some of those have dependencies of their own and some of those have . . . ; it drove me nuts. Give me apt-get any day.


Apparently Salix automatically manages dependencies, so it's one of the distro's I'm looking at. I just need to find out if it automatically installs packages like apt.

EDIT: looks like it does

http://people.salixos.org/djemos/startu ... Salix.html


Yes, it works very much like apt-get. gslapt is very similar to synaptic. :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gslapt_180px.png

You can even "poach" programs from other distros, lets say you want 0ad (game) and you do not want to build it from source (doesn't take long to do so), just go to .deb repo or .rpm repo of any distro, download the packages it requires, then convert them to slackware packages by typing rpm2tgz or deb2tgz etc... then install the new packages :)

If you build a package you can also install that package on any computer of same architecture, I use one computer if I want to build from source, then I can install them on my wifes laptop, and older PC that sucks at building packages etc.... just copy them to a usb drive or dvd and install from there. its actually quite simple.

Some people like to start to Salix then migrate to full Slackware, some just jump right into Slackware, others stay with Salix because its easier and sometimes we feel a little lazy. lol
Last edited by HuangLao on 2017-08-18 18:00, edited 1 time in total.
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