Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL looms

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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby HuangLao » 2017-08-18 17:58

if using Slackware:
update repos with slackpkg update
upgrade with slackpkg upgrade-all
remove: slackpkg remove ...
install: slackpkg install ....
you can quickly remove any non slackware packages with slackpkg clean-system
etc....https://docs.slackware.com/slackware:slackpkg

for Salix or Slackware with slapt-get:
update with slapt-get -update or -u
upgrade: slapt-get -upgrade
remove: slapt-get -remove ...
install: slapt-get -i ...
etc....
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby ruffwoof » 2017-08-18 18:43

Bulkley wrote:Debian for me has always been about package management

Package management with a difference. There's strong validating/vetting of each individual program, version control to freeze a collective combined set of programs, along with security patching and pre-building the binaries ...etc. And a army behind that ... to create a single whole.

HuangLao wrote:I can upgrade any package at any time and not wait for a package maintainer to do so or to say well wait for the next distro release because everything is frozen

OK with Debian if I don't like version x of program y that has been frozen in, I'm either stuck with that for the up to 4 years or so of that stable/oldstable lifetime, or I could backport ... before having to go outside of Debian's control (compile from source or whatever). Or just simply work around that deficiency. Throughout Jessie and now into Stretch personally I have just backported one program (jwm) and even that wasn't a necessity.

For me it distils down to the cost of giving up on the all-encompassing Debian model/framework in order to not run systemD ... simply isn't viable unless the Slacko or Salix (or whatever) packages model/framework were better than Debians.

With Debian I can run any sub-set combination of 40,000+ pre-built programs that are fixed (frozen) for typically 4 year (through stable and oldstable), that are security updated if/when necessary, all sourced from a single provider and that have been strongly vetted (and perhaps even tweaked) before being admitted to that 'library', and then absorbed (maintained) by that single provider. And in so doing induce great stability (low risk of having to down-tools to investigate and fix the tool (desktop system)). Can Slackware/Salix/whatever provide a similar model/framework? FreeBSD most certainly doesn't.
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby Bulkley » 2017-08-18 19:43

HuangLao,

Thanks for your informative responses.
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby HuangLao » 2017-08-18 20:55

Bulkley wrote:HuangLao,

Thanks for your informative responses.


You are most welcome!
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby HuangLao » 2017-08-18 20:59

for those that run Debian testing or Sid there are Slackware options for that:

you can run Slackware Current, it is very stable and is the development branch (rolling), however, it is more stable then *buntu.
https://docs.slackware.com/slackware:current

you can also use Slackel, a distro based on Slackware current and Salix:
https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=slackel
http://www.slackel.gr/forum/about.htm
http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/Slack ... 82568.html
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby HuangLao » 2017-08-18 21:19

ruffwoof wrote:
For me it distils down to the cost of giving up on the all-encompassing Debian model/framework in order to not run systemD ... simply isn't viable unless the Slacko or Salix (or whatever) packages model/framework were better than Debians.

With Debian I can run any sub-set combination of 40,000+ pre-built programs that are fixed (frozen) for typically 4 year (through stable and oldstable), that are security updated if/when necessary, all sourced from a single provider and that have been strongly vetted (and perhaps even tweaked) before being admitted to that 'library', and then absorbed (maintained) by that single provider. And in so doing induce great stability (low risk of having to down-tools to investigate and fix the tool (desktop system)). Can Slackware/Salix/whatever provide a similar model/framework? FreeBSD most certainly doesn't.


The package comparison comes up from to time, keep in mind that Debian's 50,000+ packages is not a true number, because most of those packages are split from the main package. Take for example claws-mail, in Debian it has many packages, in Slackware it is one package. Also, Slackware does not strip out/split out dev packages, in Slackware you get the program/package exactly how the original developer(s) intended it. Patches are from the original dev.'s, not package maintainers, not distro maintainers.

When you do a full install of Slackware, you have everything you need for whatever purpose you choose to use Slackware. As soon as you log in, you can start building, modifying, running whatever, no assumptions are made about what you want to use it for. A default Slackware setup on install does not even boot into X, you are there at the terminal and the system is waiting for your instructions. Would you like to startx, run from tty, whatever....of course you can enable a DM to automatically start x if you like that better. Salix defaults to GDM, was Slim in the past.

One benefit is it helps to increase security, again recall the openssl disaster, where a package maintainer felt he knew more then the openssl dev.'s and decided to make a "small change". Slackware was never affected by this massive security hole. Its packages are pure vanilla, you get what the program developers intended, and the program works and looks how they intended. Also, services are not started unless you specifically tell it to start, auto starting services before they are configured is another security nightmare.

But I digress, the purpose of this thread is to highlight other options for those currently using Debian that would like not to use systemd, not get into a pissing contest of which is better, longer, or who spells their name better in the snow. :lol:

BTW, for those interested, Gnome is not officially supported with Slackware, you will have to add a repo for gnome, PV gave up on Gnome a long time ago. I see that as a benefit, others may not. Slackware works closely with Xfce and KDE dev.'s as well.

PS: further reflection on security: Slackware was used in International Space Station and it is still used by many in corporations and various government(s). Quite popular for development purposes, workstations and servers etc....

Ref: https://www.linuxjournal.com/article/3024?page=0,1
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby ruffwoof » 2017-08-19 11:14

I'd like to thank you HuangLao for having taken the time to enlighten here. Slackware does indeed look like a good choice of stable alternative for those preferring to avoid SystemD. I watched through Spatry's video of installing slackware and even downloaded the iso image with the intent of giving it a try out of interest. Sadly however my preferred choices of relatively lightweight jwm and pcmanfm aren't in the base system (yes I know can easily be pulled in) ... so I've dropped the idea. Certainly looks a better choice than FreeBSD (having so much more in the base system), and rock solid on the stability side. Thanks again, greatly appreciated.
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby Lysander » 2017-08-19 11:43

I'd also like to extend my thanks to the OP. After fiddling around for a bit in Salix Live I managed to compile my first program from source - neofetch. Yes, it's a simple one but it felt like an accomplishment. Thank you, OP!

Image

EDIT: Just got Spotify installed from Slackbuilds too. They're using v 1.0.59.395.ge6ca9946, more up to date than the Stretch version.

EDIT2: thanks jibberjabber
Last edited by Lysander on 2017-08-19 12:36, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby stevepusser » 2017-08-19 16:31

Lysander wrote:I'd also like to extend my thanks to the OP. After fiddling around for a bit in Salix Live I managed to compile my first program from source - neofetch. Yes, it's a simple one but it felt like an accomplishment. Thank you, OP!

Image

EDIT: Just got Spotify installed from Slackbuilds too. They're using v 1.0.59.395.ge6ca9946, more up to date than the Stretch version.

EDIT2: thanks jibberjabber


"Compiling" neofetch, a shell script? :?
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby Lysander » 2017-08-19 16:59

stevepusser wrote:"Compiling" neofetch, a shell script? :?


OK, well maybe I misunderstood the meaning of 'compile' in this context. I'm learning.

OP, you must get people to update their sources if trying the live Salix install. I see that http://salix.hostingxtreme.com/x86_64/* is down, but I couldn't use

Code: Select all
sudo reposetup


because it was looking at http://salix.hostingxtreme.com/x86_64/* for the list. I changed the sources lists manually then updated via reposetup so they now look like this

Code: Select all
# Working directory for local storage/cache.
WORKINGDIR=/var/slapt-get

# Exclude package names and expressions.
# To exclude pre and beta packages, add this to the exclude:
#   [0-9\_\.\-]{1}pre[0-9\-\.\-]{1}
EXCLUDE=^aaa_elflibs,^aaa_base,^devs,^glibc.*,^kernel-.*,^rootuser-settings,^zzz-settings.*,-i?86-

# The Slackware repositories, including dependency information
SOURCE=http://slackware.uk/salix/x86_64/slackware-14.2/:OFFICIAL
SOURCE=http://slackware.uk/salix/x86_64/slackware-14.2/extra/:OFFICIAL

# The Salix repository
SOURCE=http://slackware.uk/salix/x86_64/14.2/:PREFERRED
# And the Salix extra repository
SOURCE=http://slackware.uk/salix/x86_64/extra-14.2/:OFFICIAL


Code: Select all
# Local repositories
# SOURCE=file:///var/www/packages/:CUSTOM

BUILDDIR=/usr/src/slapt-src
PKGEXT=txz
SOURCE=http://slackware.uk/salix/slkbuild/14.2/
SOURCE=http://slackware.uk/salix/sbo/14.2/


Of course, the location depends on the user, but these work, at least.
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby HuangLao » 2017-08-19 18:04

ruffwoof wrote:I'd like to thank you HuangLao for having taken the time to enlighten here. Slackware does indeed look like a good choice of stable alternative for those preferring to avoid SystemD. I watched through Spatry's video of installing slackware and even downloaded the iso image with the intent of giving it a try out of interest. Sadly however my preferred choices of relatively lightweight jwm and pcmanfm aren't in the base system (yes I know can easily be pulled in) ... so I've dropped the idea. Certainly looks a better choice than FreeBSD (having so much more in the base system), and rock solid on the stability side. Thanks again, greatly appreciated.


yeah, Slackware has many WM's and 2 DE's, however, jwm would need to be added after install. Now on Salix you could do a "core" install and then add jwm from there. core only installs the bare minimum, similar to Debian net install.

Ref: http://guide.salixos.org/103Installatio ... html#2_1_2
Last edited by HuangLao on 2017-08-19 18:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby HuangLao » 2017-08-19 18:11

Lysander wrote:I'd also like to extend my thanks to the OP. After fiddling around for a bit in Salix Live I managed to compile my first program from source - neofetch. Yes, it's a simple one but it felt like an accomplishment. Thank you, OP!

Image

EDIT: Just got Spotify installed from Slackbuilds too. They're using v 1.0.59.395.ge6ca9946, more up to date than the Stretch version.

EDIT2: thanks jibberjabber


there you go, once you get bitten with the source bug its quite intoxicating...lol....

Wait until you discover Slackbuilds or on Salix SLKBUILD (which is a hybrid of Slackbuild scripts and Arch script method), once you learn that method you can build anything from anywhere with source. easy peezy.

a hint, if you use as root or sudo "spi -u or spi -i" you can update both package repos and source repos -u or -i will install from package repos and source repos. If there is a dependency for a source package that Salix already has then it will pull in that prebuilt dependency saving time. :)
Ref: http://guide.salixos.org/321SalixPackageInstaller.html
http://guide.salixos.org/322slaptget.html
http://guide.salixos.org/325MakingaPack ... BUILD.html
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby HuangLao » 2017-08-19 18:17

Lysander wrote:
OP, you must get people to update their sources if trying the live Salix install. I see that http://salix.hostingxtreme.com/x86_64/* is down, but I couldn't use


Yes, they are working on a 14.2.1 release with updated installer, hostingxtreme stopped being a mirror after 14.2 came out, it had way too much down time. If you are in the US, then xmission (in Utah) is a very good mirror or gtlib.gatech (in Georgia) , slackware.uk (UK of course) is a huge mirror for all of slackware, however, usually mirrors closest to you are faster.

BTW, installing packages is ridiculously fast.

PS: the gui version of reposetup is under system then repository mirror
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

Postby pylkko » 2017-08-19 18:41

I wonder if universal package managers like Guix, Flatpak etc are available? That is, you could install from prebuilt binaries. Currently apparently Guix does not meet Debian "inclusion criteria", meaning that you need to install it manually from a tarball.
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