Debian User Forums

pylkko wrote:I wonder if universal package managers like Guix, Flatpak etc are available? That is, you could install from prebuilt binaries. Currently apparently Guix does not meet Debian "inclusion criteria", meaning that you need to install it manually from a tarball.

not in default install, however, it can be added:
https://slackbuilds.org/repository/14.2/system/guix/

Lysander wrote:After fiddling around for a bit in Salix Live I managed to compile my first program from source - neofetch. Yes, it's a simple one but it felt like an accomplishment.

You might like FreeBSD. You can use pkg which is similar to apt-get ... pulls down pre-built binaries, or ports ... which compiles from source. Nice and easy - you fetch the port list and then under /usr/ports you have all of the folders for programs. cd to one of those and make install clean ... and it pulls down all of the source code and builds the binary for you (asking for which settings you want to build in or not).

You are however left with having to configure things afterwards ... and when the base system is upgraded to a newer release you have to rebuild everything (for instance it can take 3 hours to build just libreoffice). You should also watch out for security flaws/updates and remove/disable them (or build the fixed versions) ...etc.

FreeBSD has a relatively small base system ... just the cli. Slackware has a larger base system ... but smaller than Debians. The more that is in the base system the less you have to do and if everything you use is solely from the base system then the risk of breakage after updates is reduced. Port in third party stuff and sooner or later a 'update' might lead to having to spend time/effort in identifying and fixing things. Nice as a learning experience, nice initially to run. But not something that personally I'd like to have to address/fix every now and then. More for the techies that enjoy such admin tasks.

Debians base contains older versions of programs because it strives to ensure each program works well individually and as part of the whole base system. Just dropping in newer individual programs from third parties (even though the third party is the program developer) on top of that base introduces risks (possible conflicts). Updates become more a game of Russian Roulette and sooner or later something goes bang.

Slackware releases when ready, everything in Slackware is thoroughly tested and vetted. Slackware does not break. If you install/compile a program from another source, perhaps that program could break, but it would only affect that program, not Slackware, and if you run the program from cli, the error message will tell you whats wrong/missing etc... very easy to fix. Also, anything built from slackbuilds.org is guaranteed to run on stable versions of Slackware, not current (dev. version/rolling).

PS: what applies to Slackware is true for Salix.

Debian_GNUkFreeBSDJessie could be one alternative. FreeBSD kernel, Debian repositories (apt-get ...etc.).

https://youtu.be/pPCdcKueeU4

https://wiki.debian.org/Debian_GNU/kFreeBSD/[quote]
Debian GNU/kFreeBSD is a general purpose operating system, an official Debian GNU distribution using the kernel of FreeBSD instead of the Linux kernel. About ninety percent of the Debian software archive is available for Debian GNU/kFreeBSD. [/quote]

There are also the non-linux/Bsd operating systems

Debian GNU/Hurd obviously also
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=133480

HelenOS
http://www.helenos.org
Minix3
http://www.minix3.org
Redox OS
https://github.com/redox-os

+100 for Minix3
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php? ... 65#p632933
==============

Regarding FreeBSD and these other non-Linux systems, it's worth mentoning that most modern hardware will not work on them or will work badly. For example, FreeBSD 11 doesn't support CPUs newer than Haswell. TrueOS supports chips up to Skylake, but it's not production ready, as someone mentioned.

EDIT: Obviously, those considering the switch from Wheezy wouldn't even run it on the newer hardware. With that in mind, this post is kinda meaningless

A Slackware user articles.
A Salix user articles.

alan stone wrote:A Slackware user articles.
A Salix user articles.

Read both, yawn. YMMV, however, your results were far from typical as evidenced on linuxquestions.org, salixos.org, IIRC's and personal experience.

I started looking into what options I would use when Debian 7 wheezy reached EOL,
about a year ago, or a little more.
The options I decided to use , based on trying many of the other options, that are being promoted in this thread, sadly none suited my needs.
The only 2 that do suit my needs, are the 2 I have mentioned,
OpenBsd and Minix3, OpenBsd being the main one, it pretty much just works, out of the box, and not only on old hardware but newer hard ware as well.
But any way, I guess it is kind of pointless, especially when the main point of the topic seems to be only to promote Slackware, and Salix. So my apology, if it is pointless to mention any other options:

Wheelerof4te wrote:Regarding FreeBSD and these other non-Linux systems, it's worth mentoning that most modern hardware will not work on them or will work badly. For example, FreeBSD 11 doesn't support CPUs newer than Haswell. TrueOS supports chips up to Skylake, but it's not production ready, as someone mentioned.

EDIT: Obviously, those considering the switch from Wheezy wouldn't even run it on the newer hardware. With that in mind, this post is kinda meaningless

I am not sure, if my post or the post quoted is the one being referred to. I am inclined to
think the post I have quoted is the one that is pointless.
To start with :

Regarding FreeBSD and these other non-Linux systems,

This is pointless, to lump all of the non-linux systems into 1 group, and consider them all to be like FreeBsd, is absurd.
I never even considered FreeBsd as a option, well I did look at some of the documentation, but it was clear, for me it was not a option. Maybe it does not support CPUs newer than Haswell, to be honest I don't know, or care. There were other reasons for deciding it is not a option, but it would be pointless to go into that here.

OpenBsd does support my hardware, and the hardware my server is using, so that is what counts.
I can see how maybe to many, Minix3 would not be a option, out of the box, it is
really minimal, but it is solid and reliable. And it has a great potential, is very interesting
to experiment with. (at least to me, and a few others any way)

From: http://wiki.minix3.org/doku.php?id=www: ... eliability Reliability in MINIX 3

One of the main goals of MINIX 3 is reliability. Below we discuss some of the more important principles that enhance MINIX 3's reliability. These principles also enhance security, since most security flaws are due to attackers exploiting bugs in the code, so greater reliability will also improve security. Some of the ideas discussed are in the current release, but a few are scheduled for the next release. As this is a research project, we often make changes as we think of new ways to improve reliability.
Reduce kernel size

Monolithic operating systems (e.g., Windows, Linux, BSD) have millions of lines of kernel code. There is no way so much code can ever be made correct. In contrast, MINIX 3 has about 4000 lines of executable kernel code. We believe this code can eventually be made fairly close to bug free.

Something to think about and consider, but then again I suppose it is pointless to some
people.
(sarcastic comment)
Now that Windows is even including Linux, in their programs, so essentially linux and ms windows have merged,... (being sarcastic here, it is the same as lumping all of the non linux systems into 1 group, and claiming them to be like FreeBsd. ) So that is my point, or point less point. (end sarcasm)
Seriously though, if any one is interested in learning more about OpenBsd:
https://www.openbsd.org/
Is the best place to start, it is not "FreeBsd",... just like Debian is not Ubuntu.
Minix3:
http://wiki.minix3.org/
And for discussion or questions:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/minix3
======================================
Any way, that is all from me now, on this topic,.. I won't be interrupting it
any more. I can see it is pointless to mention any other options beyond slackware
or salix.

minix3 doesn't support dual core processors or threading.

GarryRicketson wrote:I can see it is pointless to mention any other options beyond slackware
or salix.

It also seems to be pointless to inform about other people's experiences with any of these.

GarryRicketson wrote:I am not sure, if my post or the post quoted is the one being referred to. I am inclined to think the post I have quoted is the one that is pointless.

Hold on, Garry. I wasn't referring to your post or anyone else's. What I have said (under EDIT) is that people coming from Wheezy would most likely have older hardware that will run nicely on either of these alternatives. So, my post up there (before editing) was pointless. I hope I made it a bit clearer.

And everyone's experiences with different distros will not be the same. It's natural some people won't like Slackware or BSDs, but will love other distros. That's why we are giving those who want to move away from Debian options in the first place. Otherwise, everyone would have said "just move to Devuan" or "forget Linux, swallow the blue pill and install Windows", or even "your only option now is to sell your computer and buy a good smartphone". Even sillier option, "forget about computers and the Internet and go live in a cave somewhere. Hey, it's healthy!"

We may mildly discuss which distro is better or easier to learn than others, but don't forget the main reason HuangLao started this topic for.

Ok, no problem, actually, now that makes more sense with the clarification:

Hold on, Garry. I wasn't referring to your post or anyone else's. What I have said (under EDIT) is that people coming from Wheezy would most likely have older hardware that will run nicely on either of these alternatives. So, my post up there (before editing) was pointless. I hope I made it a bit clearer.

Even sillier option, "forget about computers and the Internet and go live in a cave somewhere. Hey, it's healthy!"

Sometimes I wonder, maybe that is not so silly, I would bring my birds though .

It might be worth another look at this old distro chart. As you can see there are three main streams: Debian, Red Hat and Slackware. Most, but not all, distros are variants of those three. Unfortunately, the chart has not been updated since 2012 so Devuan is not on it.

great chart bulkley. it is very telling, also interesting to note how many distros over time have moved more and more under the RedHat umbrella.

So many distros have come and gone over the decades, yet, RedHat, Debian and Slackware remain, even SuSe started out as a German version of Slackware.

Garry, I was hoping the thread would be open to discuss any distro not using systemd.

by HuangLao » 2017-08-21 11:00
Garry, I was hoping the thread would be open to discuss any distro not using systemd

Ok, thanks, glad to hear that.

pylkko wrote:minix3 doesn't support dual core processors or threading.

Well, sort of , but it can be installed on machines with dual core processers,
BUT it will only use 1 core. I have a "dual core processer" machine, but never have needed both core processors, only use one.
If any one is interested:
https://www.usenix.org/legacy/publicati ... enbaum.pdf
Also this: https://developers.slashdot.org/story/1 ... compatible
I must admit, and apologize though. If one needs a option that includes many features, and desktop utilities, DE, etc,.. right out of the box, Minix 3 would not be a good option.
If one wants a base that they can use to build a system, and has the skill, it is a good starting point.

HuangLao,
Thank You for your description more detailed than a simple "SW is a BSD-ish Linux"

I abandonned distro-hoping in 2008 but yet, your posts pushed me to try Slackware in a VM. I liked it but I am not sure wich one to choose between OBSD and Slack.
With OBSD, after installing certains packages (such as python3 or xfce4), the package manager prompt you with some guidelines. For python3, it explains how to set it as the default interpreter. For xfce4, it explains how to activate shutdown, restart, etc ... You can find those guidelines in /usr/local/share/doc/pkg-readmes/ and examples in /etc/examples/
There is the faq that is very helpful and should be read at least once. And we have "Absolute OpenBSD 2nd ed."

What would you recommend as a doc for new-comers so they can set there DE, wifi, etc ...?

Now a word about 2 BSDes.
OBSD pros: docs (like the best ever), clean code (implies security, ease of use, easier to master), dictatorship (focused objectives. Won't go loose after some years), simple but efficient tools (pf, doas, sndio, pledge ... not to mention the classics: openssh, libressl), thinkpad friendly.
OBSD cons: smaller community less ports, less stuff, less crap I guess. Not perfs inclined, i guess this is due to clean code (no dirty optimizations).

FreeBSD pros would be: lots of ports, doc is good too (the handbook). Lot's of stuff, several firewall, bhyve, jails, zfs, linux compat, etc... (that can be bad too)
FBSD cons: couldn't get suspend/resume to work. It seems for fitted to workstations, servers, VM
PCBSD: This is ubuntized-freebsd. Too much stuff and doesn't solve the shortcomings I had with FBSD (suspend/resume)

Funkygoby wrote: I abandonned distro-hoping in 2008 but yet, your posts pushed me to try Slackware in a VM.

Well, I am in the same boat. I have got Slackware installed on a VM and am trialling it out this week.

I really like it so far and, once one has got the hang of package installation, it's a breeze.

I am having some issues such as [I note these for interest, they are not support requests]

- KDE is beautiful but slow/won't shut down or restart properly, however, I think this is because I only allocated 1GB of RAM to the VM [and 512MB swap]. I think KDE would need a lot more than that in a proper install [e.g. my Debian install has 5GB RAM and 3GB swap].

- I haven't worked out how to get sudo working yet [or more specifically how to create a password for sudo user]

I am very interested in this distro but if it doesn't work out for me I will stick with Debian. If it does, this will be my last hop for a good while.