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boosting Stable with some testing packages

Posted: 2017-11-28 18:41
by bester69
Am i the only one that things its a good idea mixing some controlled testing packages with stable and enjoy last codecs and performance??

Right Now, Ive got upgrated in testing theses packages:
- btrfs-tools
- mpv, gnome-mpv
- pulseaudio
- intel-microcode, cpulimit
- firmware-intel-sound
- Codecs Audio/Video:
libav(ffmpeg codecs), libx264, libmpg*, AAC encoders
- Graphics Packages rendering (DRM, VAAPI, VDPAU):
libdrm-*, libva*, vdpau-drivers, i965-va-driver

What others packages would you very recommend me to boost stable without compromise very much the stability??

Re: boosting Stable with some testing packages

Posted: 2017-11-28 18:44
by Head_on_a_Stick
Ah good, another troll thread from our resident jester, what fun... :roll:

@jester: what exactly is wrong with backports?

Any not available from there can be hosted with the OBS rather easily:

http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=130057

Re: boosting Stable with some testing packages

Posted: 2017-11-28 18:55
by Lysander
Head_on_a_Stick wrote:@jester: what exactly is wrong with backports?
Less trolling potential?

Re: boosting Stable with some testing packages

Posted: 2017-11-28 18:57
by bester69
Lysander wrote:
Head_on_a_Stick wrote:@jester: what exactly is wrong with backports?
Less trolling potential?
very few backported packages, and lower version than testing, isnt that obvious?, for sure, i use sometimes backports branch

Re: boosting Stable with some testing packages

Posted: 2017-11-28 19:09
by Head_on_a_Stick
bester69 wrote:very few backported packages
Host your own then (see my link).
lower version than testing, isnt that obvious?
Not really, backports are taken from testing.

For example, with your "btrfs-tools" package (which is now a transitional package that installs btrfs-progs), the versions are exactly the same:

https://packages.debian.org/jessie-back ... trfs-progs

https://packages.debian.org/stretch/btrfs-progs

Re: boosting Stable with some testing packages

Posted: 2017-11-28 19:17
by pylkko
hybrid testing/stable doesn't sound like a good idea considering that many (if not all) of the packages from testing can probably be built safely for stable. That is, if they are not already in the backports repository.

But you should always consider the additional amount of maintenance that will come with anything like this (or your FrakenDebian). Are those new features really worth the effort? When they are, you should consider it, but it is really easy to believe that they are when they just really aren't...

http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=38976

Also, another thing.. You have said several times that you use some specific Ubuntu kernel, was it maybe 4.4. I don't know how good of an idea it is to use that with newer btrfs user space tools...

Re: boosting Stable with some testing packages

Posted: 2017-11-28 19:51
by Wheelerof4te
bester69 wrote:mixing some controlled testing packages with stable and enjoy last codecs and performance??
Sure, it will truly be "last" performance you will get.
bester69 wrote:- Codecs Audio/Video: libav(ffmpeg codecs), libx264, libmpg*, AAC encoders
Nothing wrong with those in Stretch, last I checked they played everything flawlessly.
bester69 wrote:- Graphics Packages rendering (DRM, VAAPI, VDPAU):libdrm-*, libva*, vdpau-drivers, i965-va-driver
Nope, 5% performance increase isn't worth using the borked system.

I wonder what topic will you open next? Can we have someting involving cats, please?

Re: boosting Stable with some testing packages

Posted: 2017-11-28 20:47
by bester69
Wheelerof4te wrote:
bester69 wrote:mixing some controlled testing packages with stable and enjoy last codecs and performance??
Sure, it will truly be "last" performance you will get.
bester69 wrote:- Codecs Audio/Video: libav(ffmpeg codecs), libx264, libmpg*, AAC encoders
Nothing wrong with those in Stretch, last I checked they played everything flawlessly.
bester69 wrote:- Graphics Packages rendering (DRM, VAAPI, VDPAU):libdrm-*, libva*, vdpau-drivers, i965-va-driver
Nope, 5% performance increase isn't worth using the borked system.

I wonder what topic will you open next? Can we have someting involving cats, please?
I thought you were missing.. glad to see you back :D

Re: boosting Stable with some testing packages

Posted: 2017-11-28 20:54
by bester69
pylkko wrote:hybrid testing/stable doesn't sound like a good idea considering that many (if not all) of the packages from testing can probably be built safely for stable. That is, if they are not already in the backports repository.

But you should always consider the additional amount of maintenance that will come with anything like this (or your FrakenDebian). Are those new features really worth the effort? When they are, you should consider it, but it is really easy to believe that they are when they just really aren't...

http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=38976

Also, another thing.. You have said several times that you use some specific Ubuntu kernel, was it maybe 4.4. I don't know how good of an idea it is to use that with newer btrfs user space tools...
I think you can do anything it holds on, thats my final conclusion with linux, so many versions, you can mix everithing like a spanish salad as long as it works.. Thanks to god, we can use btrfs's snapshots, so the nightmares are over.. Yes im using 4.4.39 for so long, right now Im trying to move to ubuntu's 4.8 , the performance seems similar..

Im also holding some packages due to performance; they are:
linux-misc-firmware and xserver-xorg-core

Re: boosting Stable with some testing packages

Posted: 2017-11-28 21:21
by bw123
Am i the only one that things its a good idea mixing some controlled testing packages with stable and enjoy last codecs and performance??
Thanks for this post. it's weird, I've actually thought of doing this the last week or so, and this thread has reminded me it's a bad idea.
we can use btrfs's snapshots, so the nightmares are over.
Well, for some people, having to repeatedly restore from backup or snapshot, *IS* the nightmare.

Re: boosting Stable with some testing packages

Posted: 2017-11-28 21:35
by bester69
bw123 wrote:
Am i the only one that things its a good idea mixing some controlled testing packages with stable and enjoy last codecs and performance??
Thanks for this post. it's weird, I've actually thought of doing this the last week or so, and this thread has reminded me it's a bad idea.
we can use btrfs's snapshots, so the nightmares are over.
Well, for some people, having to repeatedly restore from backup or snapshot, *IS* the nightmare.
Restoring from a snapshot is such a nightmare like this:

Code: Select all

btrfs subvolume snapshot /./snapshots/1/snapshot newrootsys
mount -t btrfs -o subvol=newrootsys /dev/sda /mnt
mount --bind /dev/ /mnt/dev && mount --bind /proc /mnt/proc && mount --bind /sys /mnt/sys
chroot /mnt 
grub-install /dev/sda && update-grub
reboot
I think in two minits you can restore a snapshot.. :roll:


BTRFS IS GOD!! 8)

Re: boosting Stable with some testing packages

Posted: 2017-11-28 21:51
by Wheelerof4te
bester69 wrote:I think in two minits you can restore a snapshot..
I'm baffled by the simplicity of it. [inserts 3 long terminal commands, chroots to /mnt, updates grub]
bester69 wrote:I thought you were missing.. glad to see you back
Thanks! Had to come back. Too many illadvised suggestions such as this one.

Re: boosting Stable with some testing packages

Posted: 2017-11-28 22:46
by bw123
bester69 wrote:
I think in two minits you can restore a snapshot..


I'm baffled by the simplicity of it. [inserts 3 long terminal commands, chroots to /mnt, updates grub]
The idea is interesting, I didn't say the *time involved was the nightmare, or it's difficulty level.

The whole idea of having a do-over, to an old guy like me, seems wrong. If you have situations monthly, weekly, daily or whatever where you need to 'go back' to a saved state, it seems to me that you are a really f'd up user (poor administrator). Now I know that is probably old-fashioned, but it just seems to me like my system that has functioned for weeks, months or years without needing to restore from backup is more reliable, or more stable. That may be an incorrect assumption, I'm not sure, it's just the way I was raised.

In the context of a frankendebian system I guess I can see how it would be very valuable. So if I was to pursue that kind of setup, I guess exploring btrfs snaphots would be a good idea.

Re: boosting Stable with some testing packages

Posted: 2017-11-29 00:34
by Bulkley
In Linux one can do almost anything if one has the skill and is willing to learn. Most of us don't and aren't. For me, my preference is to run my experiments in ~/user space if possible or in a VM. Either way there won't be any serious damage. I have, at times raided Testing or Sid for a package or two but I balk at bringing down a string of dependencies which can lead to all sorts of unexpected gifts. Of course, it is possible to bring down a source package and build it for your system. For the most part I prefer to leave the system alone; Debian Stable works well without mucking with it.

Mixing repositories is not a new thing. Debian does have documentation on AptPreferences and Pinning. There is this note of caution:
When pinning, you must ensure compatibility of packages by yourself since Debian does not guarantee it. Note that pinning is completely optional, and Debian does not encourage pinning without thorough consideration.
Good backup is mandatory before doing experiments. This forum is full of whinging from noobies who have messed up terribly and have no backup and no recourse but to reinstall.

Re: boosting Stable with some testing packages

Posted: 2017-11-29 01:16
by stevepusser
bester69 wrote:
pylkko wrote:hybrid testing/stable doesn't sound like a good idea considering that many (if not all) of the packages from testing can probably be built safely for stable. That is, if they are not already in the backports repository.

But you should always consider the additional amount of maintenance that will come with anything like this (or your FrakenDebian). Are those new features really worth the effort? When they are, you should consider it, but it is really easy to believe that they are when they just really aren't...

http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=38976

Also, another thing.. You have said several times that you use some specific Ubuntu kernel, was it maybe 4.4. I don't know how good of an idea it is to use that with newer btrfs user space tools...
I think you can do anything it holds on, thats my final conclusion with linux, so many versions, you can mix everithing like a spanish salad as long as it works.. Thanks to god, we can use btrfs's snapshots, so the nightmares are over.. Yes im using 4.4.39 for so long, right now Im trying to move to ubuntu's 4.8 , the performance seems similar..

Im also holding some packages due to performance; they are:
linux-misc-firmware and xserver-xorg-core
Hmmm..we're using a 4.13 kernel backported from Buster for the MX 17 betas right now...it supports more hardware for the amdgpu driver than the 4.13 currently in stretch-backports, and I boosted the kernel frequency from 250 to 1000 Hz for desktop use. Seems to work fine in the beta--I rebuilt the kernels in generic Stretch pbuilder VMs so they are good for Stretch, too.

Re: boosting Stable with some testing packages

Posted: 2017-11-29 01:26
by dcihon
You know if we had a Board for Debian Testing then the Stable users wouldn't have to get upset with these kinds of conversations.
Also they could just concentrate on questions for Stable Debian.
Am I off base here?
Sorry for hijacking the post.
Thanks

Re: boosting Stable with some testing packages

Posted: 2017-11-29 01:39
by bester69
bw123 wrote:......

In the context of a frankendebian system I guess I can see how it would be very valuable. So if I was to pursue that kind of setup, I guess exploring btrfs snaphots would be a good idea.
You should right now move to btrfs filesytem, its the best thing ive ever done, its very easy to understand and it nevers fails. It allow you to do anything with the system, you restore the system snapshot with a tree comands.
Since then ive even installed opensuse, ubuntu and others system in the same partition.. , Ive upgraded to debian testing and rollback to stable snapshot, Ive tested several configurations with a snapshot for each one, keeping the stable ones. Its absurd to keep using ext4 when it doesnt give you snapshots, and they offer you identycal speed IO.

Re: boosting Stable with some testing packages

Posted: 2017-11-29 01:57
by bester69
stevepusser wrote:....
Hmmm..we're using a 4.13 kernel backported from Buster for the MX 17 betas right now...it supports more hardware for the amdgpu driver than the 4.13 currently in stretch-backports, and I boosted the kernel frequency from 250 to 1000 Hz for desktop use. Seems to work fine in the beta--I rebuilt the kernels in generic Stretch pbuilder VMs so they are good for Stretch, too.
Why is that?, Are newers kernel dropping old more suitable firmwares?, Im testing now 4.13 debian's.

"and I boosted the kernel frequency from 250 to 1000 Hz for desktop use." --> Are you overclocking??, my system is AcerExtensa5230, wonder if i can increase cpu.

Re: boosting Stable with some testing packages

Posted: 2017-11-29 06:35
by Head_on_a_Stick
bester69 wrote:"and I boosted the kernel frequency from 250 to 1000 Hz for desktop use." --> Are you overclocking??, my system is AcerExtensa5230, wonder if i can increase cpu.
stevepusser is referring to the frequency of the kernel interrupts — 250Hz is the default, 1000Hz gives less lag and a more "responsive" desktop (allegedly).

EDIT: check your Ubuntu kernel's interrupt frequency with:

Code: Select all

grep CONFIG_HZ /boot/config-${kernel-version}-$arch
Replace ${kernel-version} with the kernel version and replace $arch with the architecture (probably amd64).

Re: boosting Stable with some testing packages

Posted: 2017-11-29 11:51
by pylkko
I believe that one of the nicest things about free open source operating systems is that one can try out setups that have never been even considered before. In that sense I want to support idiosyncratic, bizarre new ways to use Debian. In this particular case it just seems that there are easier ways (backporting).

Responding to Spanish salad argument: I just mean that an important part of the btrfs stack is in the kernel and the devs always say to use the latest. It sure sounds like there could be some serious amount of risk there. The kind of risk that a snapshot wont fix (possible corruption of the subvolumes themselves). So, I would be cautious.