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Last night I had this really strange dream, in the dream I was working on a program that simulated the creation of the universe, it got pretty wild,and took on a nightmarish quality, so I woke up,.... the thing of it was , some other simulator, hacked my program, and told me I was actually not real, but only a simulation as well, and this other "power" was going to simply delete me,...
So any way, after I woke up, I decided to do some searches, to my surprise
I found that I certainly am not the first person to think or dream something like this,...
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... imulation/
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http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160901 ... not-matter
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https://www.closertotruth.com/series/ar ... simulation
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesis
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It should be noted, I do not watch TV, nor movies, also I do not play
these games, "virtualized games", video games, etc, other then my old
Dos, MS pacman game. I avoid the science fiction movies,and stuff like that
because they seem to cause even wilder dreams, and often not very pleasant,
So any way, I was genuinely surprised to see this idea, of living in some kind of computer simulation is a rather common idea.... apparently there have been some movies written based on this, I have not seen them though.

The general argument against the "computer simulation" theory is that nobody would purposely create an arbitrarily cruel and fundamentally uncaring and unfair universe such as the one we inhabit.

Simply put: this must be the "base level" of reality because it is difficult to imagine anything more horrible.

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:nobody would purposely create an arbitrarily cruel and fundamentally uncaring and unfair universe

That's assuming the entity responsible for creating the simulation has any empathy for sentient (?) subjects within the virtual reality. It isn't the definition of simulation that it has to feel awesome. Cruelty and fairness are both point of view issues.

I'd argue that universe, galaxy or even world we're living in isn't the worst imaginable either. Just read some H.P. Lovecraft or Warhammer 40K lore for instance.

---- snip--because it is difficult to imagine anything more horrible.

I guess that depends on who does the imagining, even worse then some science fiction writers are the "horror movie" writers, they seem to be able to imagine things far worse then even some of my worst nightmares, again this gets into why/how I learned that for me it is better to avoid those kind of shows, and even books, they seem to infect my imagination with all sorts of horrible
ideas, that I might not have even thought of, if I had not seen or read it.
I think maybe dreams are a form of simulation, that our brain/mind uses to
simulate various ideas,goals etc, and let's us see what would or will happen
if we pursue the dream or simulation, and try to make it part of our reality, that
we live in when we are awake. I don't really know though, it is all rather beyond me, one thing I am sure about , now,... The thing that turned my dream into a nightmare, and not only was threatening to delete me, also was contaminating
what was a very pleasant , enjoyable "virtualization" ... But any way, apparently I am still in control , instead of getting deleted , I deleted the "bad thing", by waking up, it no longer exists, except as a disturbing memory, I still exist and am aware of that, simply because I am here writing now. In other dreams, even when everything was gone, I still existed, all though it was a very cold,lonely , empty sort of place, I still existed.
Then there is this, also written in a song, done by Moody Blues. "On a thresh hold of a dream" ( I think was the title)
" I think, there for I am",... the a booming voice,... " of course you are"... so there seems to be something else out there, that we can not see, nor understand,...

from: http://www.webwriter.f2s.com/moody/lyri ... .htm#begin
The Moody Blues
ON THE THRESHOLD OF A DREAM

First Man:
I think...
I think I am.
Therefore I am!
I think...

Establishment:
Of course you are, my bright little star...
I've miles and miles of files
Pretty files of your forefather's fruit
And now to suit our great computer
You're magnetic ink!

First Man:
I'm more than that
I know I am...
At least, I think I must be

Inner Man:
There you go, man
Keep as cool as you can
Face piles of trials with smiles
It riles them to believe
That you perceive
The web they weave...
And keep on thinking free

If think about it, How are improving virtual technolyies, Its to me very clear, it wouldnt be big deal to create a real Matrix, by 2200 or so. Just think about what IA and Quatum computer can bringh in a few years. It will be real without any dude, The really question, is.. are those times already caught us, or are they to come.

Somebody are saying mandela effects are fails of this matrix, I can swear I have noticed extrange thing recentlly in last free years or so, but these king of thing are so fine, you cant be sure 100% they're real or just mind games.

- A few months ago, i woke up with the light on, i live alone, and i dont remember i left the light on, i wasnt drunk that night before, and wasnt also tired to falling asleep, so I dont understand how it happend.
- Other day I went out to partty as every saturday night, and when i came back home, the house's door was locked, I never leave door locked when i go out..
- Mandela effect seems very real to me, Ford logo, or Tom Cruise with white shirt and rayban glasses on in dancing scene (risky bussiness), its a memory i clearly kept it and has changed with new reallity.:

Tom Cruis's character comes slinding across the floor in his white dress shirt, underwear, socks and black wayfear sunglasses singing Bob Seger's..
watch this:

https://books.google.es/books?id=NzgVCw ... ss&f=false

In our present reallity Tom dress pink shirt, and comes sliding without sunglasses, .... In most memories (see youtube tributes) inclduing my own, Tom was dressing white shirt ans sunglasses as He came slidding and singing...
Real ford logo as me and others remember it. (If you belong to my reallity you can pick the right one )

If you think about it, we are all living in a "computer" simulation. Our consciousness exists in our brain. Our brain in uncased in our skull, never to see the light of day. (At least while we are conscious) Everything that we perceive is from information provided to our brain from our senses. So, everything we perceive is processed by our brain. We live in an internal model of what is outside our skull. A "simulation". When you see a red apple, the color red does not exist in reality, it is the interpretation your brain makes when it receives information from your eyes that light of a particular frequency is reaching your retinas.

A simple example of this "internal model simulation" is your blind spot, which is filled in by your brain.

So, if you consider the processing power of your brain enough to qualify it as a computer, we are all living in a computer simulation.

RU55EL wrote: So, if you consider the processing power of your brain enough to qualify it as a computer, we are all living in a computer simulation.

Sorry, but that doesn't really jive with the proposition that we are living IN a simulation. What you describe is that we are creating our own simulation. And that would imply that we are creating our own reality. I suppose those that are delusional do that. LOL

But I did read that just in order to completely simulate all of the quantum interactions and states of 100 electrons would take a quantum computer with as many Qubits as the number of quanta in the universe. So if we are living in a "computer simulation" then the computer must be in some non-observable space time. Not saying it is impossible but personally I don't buy in to that.

Now, for those with a scientific bent, here is a cool bit of physics. An atom is mostly empty space. If you were to enlarge an atom of carbon such that the nucleus were the size of a peanut, then the outer electron orbits would be the size of a football stadium. If you were to compress all of the atoms in the human body so as to remove the empty space, and do the same for every human, all of the humans on the planet would fit into the size of a 1cm sugar cube. This "emptiness" is the reason that millions of cosmic rays, and other high energy cosmic particles (muons, etc) pass through you every day without harm. Most of the time they simply don't hit anything on the way through.

As to GarryRicktsons revelations, I can only say WOW. Must be good peyote!

ticojohn wrote:An atom is mostly empty space

Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as "empty space": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_fluctuation

If today with just a 3D glasses they can immerse you in a alternative reality, lets not be ingenuous,.. with Quantum computer and advanced IA in two ot tree hundred years if not befire we might have that technology ready..

You just have to take a look at F1 simulators nowadys, they are already matching reality as for experience...
The Real F1 2016, REALITY vs GAME
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9GO5eSkmRc

Now imagine what alien might bringht with them, when they make us contact.. a Matrix is very plausible to be implemented somewhere in universe. Are we now in a Matrix??, difficult to say, some things are too perfect , it doesnt look as if we were living in an accidental universe.. anyways I prefer to think we are in natural life.

garryricketson,
clearly you haven't seen the matrix yet...

...yes, because he says in the original post that he doesn't watch films...

I personally have a strong aversion for "popular culture", so I have to say that I respect that.

I am sure that the idea that the world we experience is in some or other sense "fake" or "not real" is very old. These kinds of topics are present in ancient philosophy (pre-Socratic writings, Taoism, these ancient mesoamerican cultures etc.). They might be even older, possibly predating writing itself. But is that surprising? How could you/anyone else ever construct a definition of "real" from scratch?

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

ticojohn wrote:An atom is mostly empty space

Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as "empty space": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_fluctuation

Okay. From the article, and I quote

A quantum fluctuation is the temporary appearance of energetic particles out of empty space

Note that the article refers to empty space. A quantum fluctuation is only a possibility. Then again, everything that happens is the result of a possibility.

ticojohn wrote:Note that the article refers to empty space

Yes, that's the point of the theory — what you think of as "empty space" is actually filled with a seething mass of virtual particle-antiparticle pairs being conjured into existence and then annihilating each other in a flash of electromagnetic radiation.

EDIT: the forces produced by these virtual particles have even been measured:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect

GarryRicketson wrote:Last night I had this really strange dream,

I've found that eating cheese last thing at night seems to cause unusual dreams. In fact, I knocked myself up some macaroni cheese last night but my dream was far from nightmarish; I dreamed I was drinking some red wine with two charming French girls and getting along famously, but, alas! I woke up when I would rather have continued sleeping. Well, if there's something to the theory of parallel universes where other possibilities get played out then, if this dream is anything to go by, then I wouldn't mind at all.

GarryRicketson wrote:in the dream I was working on a program that simulated the creation of the universe, it got pretty wild,and took on a nightmarish quality, so I woke up,.... the thing of it was , some other simulator, hacked my program, and told me I was actually not real, but only a simulation as well, and this other "power" was going to simply delete me,...

I've been looking at the links you've posted above and find the "computer simulation" theory entertaining so thanks for the topic.
Lastly, since, like me, your second language is Spanish, here's a nice literary quote from "La vida es sueño" by Calderón de la Barca:

¿Qué es la vida? Una ilusión,
una sombra, una ficción,
y el mayor bien es pequeño:
que toda la vida es sueño,
y los sueños, sueños son.

pylkko wrote:I am sure that the idea that the world we experience is in some or other sense "fake" or "not real" is very old. These kinds of topics are present in ancient philosophy (pre-Socratic writings, Taoism, these ancient mesoamerican cultures etc.). They might be even older, possibly predating writing itself. But is that surprising? How could you/anyone else ever construct a definition of "real" from scratch?

i always liked the cave allegory - which basically says that humanity is standing in a cave, looking inside at the shadows of things moving outside, saying: this is reality.
they should turn around and look at what is really real!

I think it was Heidegger who argued that the belief in the shadows-as-reality contains no less credibility or validity than the actual mechanisms creating the shadows, because both reveal some fundamental truth about how human beings construct reality.

Perhaps, we are all mere figments of Garry's dream.

Or am I the figment of somebody else's dream or nightmare ?

No, I don't really think for example, everyone or everything is a figment of my dreams, like wise, I am , because I am self aware, regardless of what others
might be dreaming.
I sort of think this where the line gets crossed, sanity /to insane , when one no longer can see the distinct differences between the "virtual world" they may have fabricated in their dreams, or mind, and the real world that keeps on going around them, regardless of what their fantasies and dreams are.
A shadow, is not aware of itself. (as far as I know)

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

ticojohn wrote:Note that the article refers to empty space

Yes, that's the point of the theory — what you think of as "empty space" is actually filled with a seething mass of virtual particle-antiparticle

HOAS, I think your interpretation of what you read is somewhat misconstrued. For a better understanding, assuming you are not a theoretical physicist, take a look at this article, Or not. LOL!
https://profmattstrassler.com/articles- ... -are-they/
And if you read the article be sure to read the questions and answers at the end. Pretty illuminating, I think.

The Matrix movies at least had their characters with minds based in a real world brain, instead of being complete simulations. What if the simulated people that Neo blithely shot in the Matrix were actually self-concious? What if the Zion real world dystopia was actually yet another simulation?

These topics have been explored already in science fiction...if you want some real mind benders, read Greg Egan's Permutation City.

stevepusser wrote:These topics have been explored already in science fiction...if you want some real mind benders, read Greg Egan's Permutation City.

And if you want a really cool read try Ready Player One. A future where almost everyone is totally immersed in a fantasy virtual reality. Fun read.