Debian User Forums

Just for giggles I'm going to post this since I searched and it doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere on this forum. Sure, it's more than a bit juvenile and about run its course. I rarely go there - it's a bit like too much chocolate mousse. But . . . there are legitimate admins who have stories that will make you scratch your head and wonder just how/why Debian turned on a dime to take a ride on the systemd merry-go-round.

http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php? ... 94#p662759

This is one horse beaten to death with small spoons. It's hard to develop standards when anyone can make a standard for himself.

Too many strawmen, too little developer cohesion.

one dead horse

standards

too little developer cohesion

Solution? Don't know, but systemd proved to be on the right track.

This is funny ,

but systemd proved to be on the right track

In what way, ? It proved to be on the wrong track , did not work well when I try it. Hoping it would get better at Debian 9, and it got worse. It seems to be proving to be on the wrong track. Except for Windows users, they seem to like it.

Solution?

There are other choices that do not use systemd
fortunately.

Another systemd thread????? Please lock this thread!

systemd threads that only reflect "disappointment" should be automatically locked!

[/edit]

There are "systemd is bad" threads ad nausium.

[/rant mode: ON]

New thought:

There are people that hate systemd, there are people that like systemd, and there are people that are sick of other people bitching about how they hate systemd.

[/rant mode: OFF]

[/edit]

Ah . . . the thought police. Pravda did that for a long time and much of the press elsewhere does also but truth will out!!!

It's the same that I said before, there are a lot of people that hate systemd aaaaaaand there are a lot of people that like systemd too.

But again, if you don't like systemd simply don't use it, if you don't like Debian with systemd there is Devuan, antiX, MXLinux and more, if you don't use Debian there's always Slackware, Gentoo, PcLOS and so on, choice is everywhere.

really? again?

I rather use runit, so much simpler than that pile o shite called systemd.

Yep debiman, again.

debiman wrote:really? again?

It keeps coming back, so clearly some are still not happy with systemd. Can't say I blame them.

Seventh wrote:so much simpler than that pile o shite called systemd.

Anything is simpler than that over-engineered monstrosity.

I still maintain that piling every imaginable daemon into a single inscrutable blob and running that as PID1 is a terrible idea.
Sooner or later this excessive complexity is going to bite everyone, and in the meantime I don't see any payoff at all for the change. A 2 second faster boot doesn't count.
But hey, it's all been said before and nobody listened, so there's little point repeating it.

golinux wrote:Ah . . . the thought police.

I like this tactic. Any time someone proposes a viewpoint contrary to mine, or promotes a different opinion based on experience, need or some other valid preference, I'll just self-victimise and accuse them of treating me like a thought-criminal. Nothing to do with the fact that they might actually have a valid argument in their own personal context.

I am not the biggest fan of systemd either. I run one non-systemd OS and am considering moving from Debian too [systemd is not the only reason, I should add]. systemd has crashed on me many times before [again just yesterday] - but I will still encourage healthy debate when there is a basis for it.

Though I am a proponent of free speech, telling someone that they are the "thought police" is naive and justifiably bring calls for a lock to the fore since there is a large potential for the thread to quickly descend into nothing but unproductive backbiting. Even to accuse someone of policing thoughtcrime is exactly the kind of problem we want to work against.

If you wanted to present a structured, considered argument about a specific, vital issue that brings something new to the table, that would have been more intellectually profitable to FDN. Instead, dropping in a link to an anti-systemd Twitter page is baiting, poor form, and someone with your long-term forum record should know better.

To that end, insert patronising-but-true meme:

golinux wrote:Sure, it's more than a bit juvenile and about run its course. I rarely go there - it's a bit like too much chocolate mousse.

So you knew you shouldn't post it but you did anyway. It's tantamount to trolling.

Why are folks so butt hurt that someone else dislikes systemd and posts some funny factual links in regards to it? Remember free speech? or should this thread just get shut down like a fascist would shut down dissent in real life! This goes for fascists on both sides of the argument, left / right/ stupid!

Dissent: "the holding or expression of opinions at variance with those commonly or officially held."

RU55EL wrote: There are people that hate systemd, there are people that like systemd, and there are people that are sick of other people bitching about how they hate systemd.

Let me rephrase that.

There are people that hate sytemd.

There are people that don't hate systemd.

There are people that hate people that bitch about systemd for the sake of bitching.

And.

There are people that hate when other people bitch about them bitching about systemd.

It would be nice if this was a technical discussion concerning systemd, good or bad, but that is not how the thread was started. Starting a thread with the sole purpose of griping about systemd has been done ad nauseam. Nothing new here!

I really don't like the complexity and massive code base of systemd so I dual-boot OpenBSD & Alpine Linux on my laptop; I do have an Arch Linux chroot in Alpine for games that won't work with musl libc but systemd isn't even installed in that

Having said that though, I do miss some of systemd's lovely features, most especially the sublime logging — contrary to popular bullshit the binary logs can be read directly with strings(1) and then processed with grep & awk & sed (oh my!) but journalctl can also be used to analyse logs in a mounted filesystem for recovery purposes and the conveniences it affords really do help in a tight spot.

I would also like to mention that unlike anybody else in this thread I have actually dealt directly with Mr. Poettering and I found him to be rather excellent and not the monster often portrayed; see for yourself:

https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/6684

The bug was fixed very quickly indeed

RU55EL wrote:It would be nice if this was a technical discussion concerning systemd, good or bad . . .

There have been many technical discussions over the years long before the GR. The debate fell on deaf ears and was grounds for a warning/ban on debian-user at least. So I thought real life experiences after-the-fact might be more instructive. Yes, there are illuminating nuggets at that link mixed in with the adolescent systemd bashing.

^There is no need for that anymore. Maybe it was before Devuan, and before Antix/MX Linux became more popular. Now, if you don't like systemd, just use those distros and leave people of this forum alone.

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:contrary to popular bullshit the binary logs can be read directly with strings(1) and then processed with grep & awk & sed

Huh, I never thought to try that, thanks.
It's still a complicated un-Unixlike abomination though, with a huge number of functions (and potential bugs) that have no place whatsoever in an init system.
Simple flexible tools are always better. Strings, grep, awk & sed > systemtext.

Apart from the systemd part of it, "After the fact stories", look at how many
posts this forum has about disasters, and "important data" that is lost, because
the administrator did not have enough sense to even make a back up before they start messing around with things they do not understand.
And then they get upset when it pointed out the whole problem is PBCAK,....
The systemd promoters , pushers , are about the same, they are refusing to
admit or accept the fact that they are headed in the wrong direction.
Unless of course the entire community of "Unix like" system users wants to revert back to a MS windows like failure.
I honestly, really have tried to give the newer systemd a chance and try it,
but it just plain does not work for me. Of course for those that like it, and seem to be having success, no problem as well, "go for it". Nobody is forced or obligated to use a system they don't like.

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:[...] contrary to popular bullshit the binary logs can be read directly with strings(1) and then processed with grep & awk & sed (oh my!)[...]

That is very interesting! I would have never thought to try that, thanks!

I hate systemd too!
What bugs me most, is that noone explained me, why brutally violating one of the most basic Unix philosophy (one tool, for one thing) and turning on to software suites.
(Still being on Jessie) I've disable systemd and I don't use it at all.
If this is not possible at future versions, I'll (regrettably) have move to another distribution (Devuan, PCLinux, etc).

Being said that, the sad thing is, that many people left Debian for other distros.
Look at the Wiki. Seems abandoned and poorly (if not at all) maintained.
It's really hard to find any related information for the stable version. It contains all kind of topics, for oldstable, oldoldstable etc.
When I had to find informations the last year, I had to google and find them at other places (Arch and Ubuntu wikis, Linux Questions etc).

I'm wondering if systemd was our (or Debian) Nemesis!

GarryRicketson wrote:Nobody is forced or obligated to use a system they don't like.

This is the problem, if everyone just stays quiet and "deals with it" (systemd), there's a very real possibility that this franken-daemon will become mandatory if you want to run any of the big distros, DEs or large software packages.
Yes there are distros that don't use it by default, but as more and more software becomes dependent on it, running one of those becomes increasingly limiting. It's removing flexibility and granularity of choice. Hell, it pretty much killed kFreeBSD.
And for what? Does anyone here have a real, pressing need that is filled by systemd? A serious problem that it has solved?
I can think of plenty that it has caused.