After the fact stories

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Re: After the fact stories

Postby Wheelerof4te » 2018-01-10 19:54

golinux wrote:I'd like to add . . . to remain free is the challenge because freedom is easily lost and its absence only recognized when it is too late. Remain vigilant and understand that comfort and complacency will accelerate freedom's demise.

Let's be real for once here. Does systemd run on your system? Does it take up a lot more HDD space than when it runs sysV? What about system performance, is it lacking in any way? What problem does systemd pose for you when you hate it so much that you don't want to use it? If not, maybe consider buying a better PC? There are plenty good low-end and cheap used ones, it's 2018.
Don't preach "freedom" here, cause systemd is free and has been free software since the start. It is used and improved by the largest free software and Linux kernel contributor to date, Red Hat. Without Red Hat, we would not have mainstream Linux right now. Especially in the server arena.
And then someone comes in and dares to mock people who have been working very hard for so long to bring Linux to so many users.
It's shameful. Stop whining already.
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby GarryRicketson » 2018-01-10 20:08

Stop whining already.

No no body is whining, "After the fact",... many people have tried using the new systemd, and after the fact, well the thread in the OP's link says what
a huge group of people are finding, after the fact.

Especially in the server arena.


The company that provides my servers, and their tech/techs that take care of it all, even the support technician, the guy that installs the OS on the servers when someone rents a server. And all though they do have/offer CentOS, (red hat), Any way, when I commented I did not want to install anything with systemd, his response was " I agree, most of them are using older versions or other OS",
I do have one server that is using CentOS with, it was the biggest headache setting it up, and is the most problematic. The others, using either older Debian versions, or OpenBsd, are the most stable and trouble free.
Just like people moved away from MS windows, because of to many problems,
many of use are finding that there is a better way, and no need for a systemd system, and the headaches that come with it.
What about system performance, is it lacking in any way?

YES
===== edit====
Minix 3 also works ok as a server, no systemd either, how ever we need to do some work on that, I had a few minor problems, and since it was remote, I decided to shut it down, and use something else for now, but that is another topic.
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby oswaldkelso » 2018-01-10 20:24

First off thanks to Hoas for posting some really useful technical information.

The whole shim thing is useful to know but a symptom of the much bigger issue of straying from the Unix philosophy. Shims should not be needed. How many shims will I need in 3 to 5 years? What happens when they no longer work after upstream changes something. I could never become dependent of a system relying on shims because they demand me be a slave to what ever flaw requires it in the first place. This is not just about systemd. We're seeing the same thing needed in Firefox re-PA. Non of this should be necessary. At least with Firefox you can currently compile this out but it still sucks.

I know I'm a bit of a dinosaur and I will shortly (probably) :-) have to add python3, and some GTK3 and QT5 applications to my systems but I doubt very much they will offer me anything apart from shiny new and bloat. The thought of having to add a bucket load of shims....no thanks. My system currently does everything I need and more and is as snappy as a trap and I'll do my damnedest to keep it that way.

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Re: After the fact stories

Postby steve_v » 2018-01-10 20:26

Wheelerof4te wrote:What about system performance, is it lacking in any way?
If you call a 3 minute wait at shutdown a performance problem, yes.
If you call increased memory consumption a performance problem, yes.
If you call increased idle CPU use a performance problem, yes.

Wheelerof4te wrote:What problem does systemd pose for you when you hate it so much that you don't want to use it?
It stifles my freedom to run an init system of my choosing.
It makes the boot process difficult to follow and to modify.
It adds failure-prone and unneeded complexity and attack surface.
It's required by a huge number of debian packages for no good reason.
It gets on my nerves. I simply don't like it, the entire design smells.

Wheelerof4te wrote:If not, maybe consider buying a better PC?
If your answer to code bloat and scope creep is "buy a faster PC"... I have no words. At least no printable ones anyway.

If you like systemd, then you should be free to run it, without a bunch of collateral damage.
I don't like systemd, and I should be free to not run it, without a bunch of collateral damage.

The problem is, I can't not run systemd without loosing a whole lot of other things that have absolutely nothing to do with systemd.
If it was optional, we wouldn't be having this argument. Why is it not optional?


oswaldkelso wrote:The whole shim thing is useful to know but a symptom of the much bigger issue of straying from the Unix philosophy.
Word.

oswaldkelso wrote:This is not just about systemd. We're seeing the same thing needed in Firefox re-PA. None of this should be necessary.
Indeed. I doubt it's a coincidence that systemd and pulseaudio are both from RedHat. Products of the same developer even.
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby Wheelerof4te » 2018-01-10 20:51

steve_v wrote:If you call a 3 minute wait at shutdown a performance problem, yes.If you call increased memory consumption a performance problem, yes.If you call increased idle CPU use a performance problem, yes.


Timeout can be reduced, and it doesn't happen often anymore. Not much anyway.
Increased memory consumption? By what margins now? Aren't you maybe attributing it to general newer software memory consumption? Have you run valid benchmarks on the same system?
Increased idle CPU use is the same as above. I even attribute it to pulseaudio or some other process, rather than systemd.

steve_v wrote:It stifles my freedom to run an init system of my choosing.

Not really. There are good systemd-free distros now, and there were before. (Wheezy)
steve_v wrote:It makes the boot process difficult to follow and to modify.

If there is a problem, it will be clearly visible in red (unless you enabled "quiet"). If not, there are journald logs.
steve_v wrote:It adds failure-prone and unneeded complexity and attack surface.

And your answer is to run decades old code which has many known flaws and will not be maintained officially ever?
steve_v wrote:It's required by a huge number of debian packages for no good reason.

See above. And it's installed by default now in Debian, what did you expect?
steve_v wrote:It gets on my nerves. I simply don't like it, the entire design smells.

So don't use systems that run it. Why would a piece of free software get on your nerves, anyway?
steve_v wrote:If your answer to code bloat and scope creep is "buy a faster PC"... I have no words. At least no printable ones anyway.

And if your answer is to forever be running an old Pentium build with 1 GB RAM, then I too really don't have words for your ignorance. No wonder everything seems slow for you and some other people here. The 32-bit arch is dying, you can't do computing on the potato PC anymore. I know, I had a potato until 2015th.
steve_v wrote:Indeed. I doubt it's a coincidence that systemd and pulseaudio are both from RedHat. Products of the same developer even.

First Red Hat, and now Mozzila too? Wow man...who needs FOSS browser and the world's largest and most profitable open source company, am I right? s/ Surely you know better than the people who actually code that free software. /s
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby GarryRicketson » 2018-01-10 21:00

First Red Hat, and now Mozzila too? Wow man...who needs FOSS browser and the world's largest and most profitable open source company, am I right?

Right, and NOT ME, I don't need it. It is fortunate I have choices.
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby steve_v » 2018-01-10 21:27

Wheelerof4te wrote:Timeout can be reduced, and it doesn't happen often anymore. Not much anyway.
Really? Happened on Stretch last week. Twice, for no apparent reason. Some bollocks about stop jobs for my session or somesuch. SysV just kills anything that doesn't play the game, like a sensible init.
When I say "shut down", I mean "right now", not "Open the pod bay doors please HAL".

Wheelerof4te wrote:Increased memory consumption? By what margins now? Aren't you maybe attributing it to general newer software memory consumption? Have you run valid benchmarks on the same system?
Increased idle CPU use is the same as above. I even attribute it to pulseaudio or some other process, rather than systemd.
Jessie, same box, booting with / without systemd. I don't recall the numbers but I can probably do it again if you really want. I don't run pulseaudio, because it's a turd as well.

Wheelerof4te wrote:There are good systemd-free distros now, and there were before. (Wheezy)
See prior comments on missing applications and functionality. Comparatively few options as far as distros go. Systemd has split the community, and I don't see how that can be a good thing.

Wheelerof4te wrote:If there is a problem, it will be clearly visible in red (unless you enabled "quiet"). If not, there are journald logs.
I don't give a fat rats hiney about fancy colours in my boot messages, I want to see and edit the init sequence, in a common and readable script language.

Wheelerof4te wrote:And your answer is to run decades old code which has many known flaws and will not be maintained officially ever?
My answer is to run less code. I don't care how old it is as long as it works properly. SysV did, and still does. So does runit. So does BSD init.

Wheelerof4te wrote:And it's installed by default now in Debian, what did you expect?
A choice. See earlier posts.

Wheelerof4te wrote:Why would a piece of free software get on your nerves, anyway?
Because it's scary. It's a huge omniscient omnipotent blob of code, where once there were many small, simple daemons. It's usurped a ridiculous number of roles since introduction, and yet the open-bug count is still rising rapidly. Who knows what security armageddon is lurking in there.

Wheelerof4te wrote:And if your answer is to forever be running an old Pentium build with 1 GB RAM, then I too really don't have words for your ignorance.
I7,6x4.3GHz, 32GB RAM, SSDs in RAID10, FWIW. Slow, no. Slower with more junk code running on it, yes.

Wheelerof4te wrote:First Red Hat, and now Mozzila too?
Mozilla didn't develop pulseaudio, Lennart Poettering‎ did. Mozzilla is just the latest bastion of freedom to be overrun by the "Unify Linux" horde.
They have perfectly good ALSA code, but it's being deprecated because "everyone runs pulseaudio". I call shenanigans.
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby Wheelerof4te » 2018-01-10 21:48

steve_v wrote:Really? Happened on Stretch last week. Twice, for no apparent reason.

Then it must be something about Stretch, since on CentOS or Fedora your rig might not hang. Stretch is riddled with bugs anyway so there is your rabbit.
steve_v wrote:Jessie, same box, booting with / without systemd. I don't recall the numbers but I can probably do it again if you really want. I don't run pulseaudio, because it's a turd as well.

Besides "I don't use it cuz it's a turd", not very helpful info. And please don't waste your time with performance benchmarking. With your rig, you wouldn't even notice.
steve_v wrote:I7,6x4.3GHz, 32GB RAM, SSDs in RAID10, FWIW. Slow, no. Slower with more junk code running on it, yes.

That's a very bold statement there. I have way less RAM than you (8GB), Intel Core Duo 3825U and it's iGPU, plus Radeon R5 330. GNOME flies on my laptop, can't even imagine how fast it is on yours.
steve_v wrote:Who knows what security armageddon is lurking in there.

Maybe. But so far in all these years, people have not found and exploited it. And it's all open-source.
steve_v wrote:Mozzilla is just the latest bastion of freedom to be overrun by the "Unify Linux" horde.

Mozzilla is not being overrun by anyone. It just follows suit with what most people are using right now, like any normal organization.
Sorry about all the ranting, I'm in the "rant" mode right now :D
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby steve_v » 2018-01-10 22:24

Wheelerof4te wrote:Besides "I don't use it cuz it's a turd", not very helpful info.
Getting me started on pulseaudio is not a good idea...
Ditto the various crapkit varieties...
I'm biting my tongue.

Wheelerof4te wrote:please don't waste your time with performance benchmarking. With your rig, you wouldn't even notice.
Actually, that's a different machine. Dual socket Xeon, 48GB :P

Wheelerof4te wrote:so far in all these years, people have not found and exploited it. And it's all open-source.
Systemd is a spring chicken, by init system standards. And while it hasn't been compromised yet, it has had it's fair share of exploitable issues. And I've seen far, far more bugs in the short time systemd has been around than I have in nearly 2 decades with SysV.
Being "open-source" is absolutely no indication that software is secure either. None at all. Think heartbleed et al.

Wheelerof4te wrote:Mozzilla is not being overrun by anyone. It just follows suit with what most people are using right now
Such logic is circular - everyone uses pulseaudio, so applications require pulseaudio, so everyone must use pulseaudio. It's a trap.
To escape, just sed -i -e 's/require/support/g'. The same strategy works for escaping the systemd trap too, the problem is that hard dependency.

Fortunately Firefox can still be compiled with ALSA support... For now. But it's hidden away as "you must recompile to use this" explicitly to get people to stop using it, and that's bad. That means it'll go away completely soon.
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby HuangLao » 2018-01-10 23:08

Wheelerof4te wrote:And your answer is to run decades old code which has many known flaws and will not be maintained officially ever?


there is alot of FUD in this thread regarding the status of systemd. the above qoute is one example: sysV has a new maintainer and BTW, 1/4 of Linux distros still use sysV.
https://www.linuxquestions.org/question ... 175621335/
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby golinux » 2018-01-10 23:57

Wheelerof4te wrote:
golinux wrote:I'd like to add . . . to remain free is the challenge because freedom is easily lost and its absence only recognized when it is too late. Remain vigilant and understand that comfort and complacency will accelerate freedom's demise.
Don't preach "freedom" here, cause systemd is free and has been free software since the start.
Let's talk about this 'free software' that you praise. Here are some facts. These are the packages that are part of systemd and therefore BANNED from a non-systemd environment:

https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/bannedpackages.txt

These packages need attention to remove hard dependencies on systemd. In Devuan we clean up the mess as necessary and provide sanitized packages.:

https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/oldpackages.txt

And these packages depend on libsystemd. While that connection is currently rather benign, there is a good chance that could change in the future. We are watching this closely.

https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/libsystemd.txt

Note that with each release the ties and lockins increase. This is not 'free' software, it is 'conditional' software and that's why so many of us have our knickers in a twist.

It is used and improved by the largest free software and Linux kernel contributor to date, Red Hat. Without Red Hat, we would not have mainstream Linux right now. Especially in the server arena.
Just a corporate wolf in sheep's clothing. Time to wake up and smell the bottom line. 'Mainstreaming' Linux will eventually destroy it. That's the point. Users lose. Red Hat profits.

And then someone comes in and dares to mock people who have been working very hard for so long to bring Linux to so many users.
It's shameful.
No it's not. I'll stop when systemd returns to being ONLY an init system and stops making non-init-related software dependent on anything systemd.
May the FORK be with you!
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby steve_v » 2018-01-11 00:39

golinux wrote:I'll stop when systemd returns to being ONLY an init system and stops making non-init-related software dependent on anything systemd.
This. I gave systemd a fair trial, I was patient. It only got worse.
I'll probably see you over on the Devuan board sometime soon, I'm currently in the process of compiling the last of the stuff I need to upgrade my lil' home server from Jessie to... Jessie. :)

There is a point where the aggravation of systemds invasive behaviour exceeds the hassle of weeding it out (and free-time exists to do so). I was going to wait for ASCII, but since this box isn't running a desktop there are fewer blockers.
So far all is going according to plan, so I expect my other boxen will follow soon. The KDE problem remains to be solved, however.

Seeing "INIT: version 2.88 booting" scroll by again, it was beautiful. And all my custom init scripts work again (including one that I had forgotten even existed). :mrgreen:
I can't tell the difference as far as boot times either. :P

Thanks for starting this thread, it has rekindled my anger, and spurred me to action.

How is ASCII coming along, BTW?
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby golinux » 2018-01-11 01:03

steve_v wrote:
golinux wrote:I'll stop when systemd returns to being ONLY an init system and stops making non-init-related software dependent on anything systemd.
This. I gave systemd a fair trial, I was patient. It only got worse.
I'll probably see you over on the Devuan board sometime soon . . .
See you there! IRC channels are also quite active.

Thanks for starting this thread, it has rekindled my anger, and spurred me to action.
YW.

How is ASCII coming along, BTW?
ASCII is coming along quite well. Devuan servers are running on it as are many desktops. Hopefully an official release soon.
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby Wheelerof4te » 2018-01-11 11:01

HuangLao wrote:
Wheelerof4te wrote:And your answer is to run decades old code which has many known flaws and will not be maintained officially ever?


there is alot of FUD in this thread regarding the status of systemd. the above qoute is one example: sysV has a new maintainer and BTW, 1/4 of Linux distros still use sysV.
https://www.linuxquestions.org/question ... 175621335/


I heard about it. New and only maintainer. That's far from official support in my book, that's why I wrote the word "officially". Not that I wouldn't mind if more people take up work to maintain it.
Regarding the 1/4 of Linux distros that still use sysV. Well, that was one of my major points in the previous posts. There are distros that reject systemd, so why don't people use them instead of complaining here on DUF. Last I checked, Debian has switched to systemd.
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby bdtc1 » 2018-01-11 21:55

Wheelerof4te wrote:Debian has switched to systemd.


sysvinit-core is available Debian for all versions, thus "sysv vs systemd" is still a valid topic for Debian-related discussions.

There are legitimate concerns on each side, and nothing has been "settled".
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