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After the fact stories

Off-Topic discussions about science, technology, and non Debian specific topics.
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steve_v
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Re: After the fact stories

#16 Post by steve_v »

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:contrary to popular bullshit the binary logs can be read directly with strings(1) and then processed with grep & awk & sed
Huh, I never thought to try that, thanks.
It's still a complicated un-Unixlike abomination though, with a huge number of functions (and potential bugs) that have no place whatsoever in an init system.
Simple flexible tools are always better. Strings, grep, awk & sed > systemtext.
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GarryRicketson
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Re: After the fact stories

#17 Post by GarryRicketson »

Apart from the systemd part of it, "After the fact stories", look at how many
posts this forum has about disasters, and "important data" that is lost, because
the administrator did not have enough sense to even make a back up before they start messing around with things they do not understand.
And then they get upset when it pointed out the whole problem is PBCAK,....
The systemd promoters , pushers , are about the same, they are refusing to
admit or accept the fact that they are headed in the wrong direction.
Unless of course the entire community of "Unix like" system users wants to revert back to a MS windows like failure.
I honestly, really have tried to give the newer systemd a chance and try it,
but it just plain does not work for me. Of course for those that like it, and seem to be having success, no problem as well, "go for it". Nobody is forced or obligated to use a system they don't like.

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RU55EL
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Re: After the fact stories

#18 Post by RU55EL »

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:[...] contrary to popular bullshit the binary logs can be read directly with strings(1) and then processed with grep & awk & sed (oh my!)[...]
That is very interesting! I would have never thought to try that, thanks!

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Mad_7
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Re: After the fact stories

#19 Post by Mad_7 »

I hate systemd too! :lol:
What bugs me most, is that noone explained me, why brutally violating one of the most basic Unix philosophy (one tool, for one thing) and turning on to software suites.
(Still being on Jessie) I've disable systemd and I don't use it at all.
If this is not possible at future versions, I'll (regrettably) have move to another distribution (Devuan, PCLinux, etc).

Being said that, the sad thing is, that many people left Debian for other distros.
Look at the Wiki. Seems abandoned and poorly (if not at all) maintained.
It's really hard to find any related information for the stable version. It contains all kind of topics, for oldstable, oldoldstable etc.
When I had to find informations the last year, I had to google and find them at other places (Arch and Ubuntu wikis, Linux Questions etc).

I'm wondering if systemd was our (or Debian) Nemesis!
For the glorious men, every land is a grave.
Pericles' Funeral Oration. Thucydides.

steve_v
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Re: After the fact stories

#20 Post by steve_v »

GarryRicketson wrote:Nobody is forced or obligated to use a system they don't like.
This is the problem, if everyone just stays quiet and "deals with it" (systemd), there's a very real possibility that this franken-daemon will become mandatory if you want to run any of the big distros, DEs or large software packages.
Yes there are distros that don't use it by default, but as more and more software becomes dependent on it, running one of those becomes increasingly limiting. It's removing flexibility and granularity of choice. Hell, it pretty much killed kFreeBSD.
And for what? Does anyone here have a real, pressing need that is filled by systemd? A serious problem that it has solved?
I can think of plenty that it has caused.
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Re: After the fact stories

#21 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

steve_v wrote:as more and more software becomes dependent on it, running one of those becomes increasingly limiting
I'm not sure about that — Alpine recently added the GNOME desktop to their repositories, without systemd (just like OpenBSD do it):

Code: Select all

~$ apk search systemd
haproxy-systemd-wrapper-1.7.9-r1
~$
There's no way Alpine will ever switch to systemd because it's too bloated for their container-obsessed user base and I'm sure the same is true for Void & Tiny Core.
deadbang

steve_v
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Re: After the fact stories

#22 Post by steve_v »

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:Alpine recently added the GNOME desktop to their repositories, without systemd (just like OpenBSD do it):
Can't say I have a burning desire to run gnome in particular, but this is promising.
Shame the Debian team wasn't so sensible.
Alpine doesn't really sound that appealing as a general-purpose desktop though, I'd associate musl & busybox more with embedded applications. Have you actually used it as a desktop?
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Re: After the fact stories

#23 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

steve_v wrote:Have you actually used it as a desktop?
Using it now :D

It does pretty much everything I need except Steam, they even have Kodi :)
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steve_v
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Re: After the fact stories

#24 Post by steve_v »

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:It does pretty much everything I need except Steam, they even have Kodi :)
Really? All compiled against musl libc? :shock:
What about proprietary binaries compiled against glibc? I do run a couple of non-free apps I can't get source for, and some games...
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Re: After the fact stories

#25 Post by golinux »

GarryRicketson wrote:Nobody is forced or obligated to use a system they don't like.
For the moment. But that choice could disappear in the grip of a corporate stranglehold masquerading as "open source".
May the FORK be with you!

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Re: After the fact stories

#26 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

steve_v wrote:What about proprietary binaries compiled against glibc?
https://wiki.alpinelinux.org/wiki/Runni ... c_programs

^ I use that method to run Dungeon Crawl, I haven't managed to get permissions for the graphics card to work through the chroot so that Steam will run but I haven't given up yet :mrgreen:
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Re: After the fact stories

#27 Post by golinux »

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:"To be free is nothing, to become free is everything." — Hegel
I'd like to add . . . to remain free is the challenge because freedom is easily lost and its absence only recognized when it is too late. Remain vigilant and understand that comfort and complacency will accelerate freedom's demise.
May the FORK be with you!

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Re: After the fact stories

#28 Post by steve_v »

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:I haven't managed to get permissions for the graphics card to work through the chroot
That's a showstopper, and chroot for glibc is just ugly, I might as well run the distro I'm chrooting into.
It sounded pretty tempting for a minute there, but I'm back to musl & buisybox != desktop distro.

It's kinda beside the point anyway - the big distros need to offer a choice, preferably at install-time, as to whether systemd is installed. This must include the libraries, not just what's in PID1.
The choice between installing systemd or loosing the option of using a bunch of completely unrelated software is utter bullshit.
This should never have happened, and and it only did happen because all the big distros caved and followed RH like obedient little sheep.

As far as i can see, there is not a single distro that ships KDE5 without systemd, and only a handful of obscure or otherwise limiting options that ship GNOME. W.T.F? How the hell did we end up here?
Please, correct me if I'm wrong about this, I'm still looking for a systemd-free distro that doesn't drop KDE. Any suggestions?
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Re: After the fact stories

#29 Post by golinux »

steve_v wrote:Please, correct me if I'm wrong about this, I'm still looking for a systemd-free distro that doesn't drop KDE. Any suggestions?
Someone has gotten KDE plasma running on Devuan. It is only available post-install. YMMV, of course. You can also search the DNG mail list and the #devuan botbot logs for more info if you're interested. I know that quite a few over at Devuan are using KDE (why I'll never understand though).
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Re: After the fact stories

#30 Post by steve_v »

golinux wrote:Someone has gotten KDE plasma running on Devuan.
Sounds like a pretty loose use of the term "running" to me. Includes the phrase "not ready for daily usage". Might try it though.
golinux wrote:(why I'll never understand though).
I feel the same way about GNOME. :P


Ed. Nope, still way too much stuff missing / broken in devuan. Can't even run it on my home server without loosing functionality, because I need backports. This is ridiculous.
Why the **** does zoneminder need systemd? Did someone put that dependency in there just to be a jerk or what?
Last edited by steve_v on 2018-01-10 20:03, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: After the fact stories

#31 Post by Wheelerof4te »

golinux wrote:I'd like to add . . . to remain free is the challenge because freedom is easily lost and its absence only recognized when it is too late. Remain vigilant and understand that comfort and complacency will accelerate freedom's demise.
Let's be real for once here. Does systemd run on your system? Does it take up a lot more HDD space than when it runs sysV? What about system performance, is it lacking in any way? What problem does systemd pose for you when you hate it so much that you don't want to use it? If not, maybe consider buying a better PC? There are plenty good low-end and cheap used ones, it's 2018.
Don't preach "freedom" here, cause systemd is free and has been free software since the start. It is used and improved by the largest free software and Linux kernel contributor to date, Red Hat. Without Red Hat, we would not have mainstream Linux right now. Especially in the server arena.
And then someone comes in and dares to mock people who have been working very hard for so long to bring Linux to so many users.
It's shameful. Stop whining already.

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Re: After the fact stories

#32 Post by GarryRicketson »

Stop whining already.
No no body is whining, "After the fact",... many people have tried using the new systemd, and after the fact, well the thread in the OP's link says what
a huge group of people are finding, after the fact.
Especially in the server arena.
The company that provides my servers, and their tech/techs that take care of it all, even the support technician, the guy that installs the OS on the servers when someone rents a server. And all though they do have/offer CentOS, (red hat), Any way, when I commented I did not want to install anything with systemd, his response was " I agree, most of them are using older versions or other OS",
I do have one server that is using CentOS with, it was the biggest headache setting it up, and is the most problematic. The others, using either older Debian versions, or OpenBsd, are the most stable and trouble free.
Just like people moved away from MS windows, because of to many problems,
many of use are finding that there is a better way, and no need for a systemd system, and the headaches that come with it.
What about system performance, is it lacking in any way?
YES
===== edit====
Minix 3 also works ok as a server, no systemd either, how ever we need to do some work on that, I had a few minor problems, and since it was remote, I decided to shut it down, and use something else for now, but that is another topic.
Last edited by GarryRicketson on 2018-01-10 20:57, edited 1 time in total.

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oswaldkelso
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Re: After the fact stories

#33 Post by oswaldkelso »

First off thanks to Hoas for posting some really useful technical information.

The whole shim thing is useful to know but a symptom of the much bigger issue of straying from the Unix philosophy. Shims should not be needed. How many shims will I need in 3 to 5 years? What happens when they no longer work after upstream changes something. I could never become dependent of a system relying on shims because they demand me be a slave to what ever flaw requires it in the first place. This is not just about systemd. We're seeing the same thing needed in Firefox re-PA. Non of this should be necessary. At least with Firefox you can currently compile this out but it still sucks.

I know I'm a bit of a dinosaur and I will shortly (probably) :-) have to add python3, and some GTK3 and QT5 applications to my systems but I doubt very much they will offer me anything apart from shiny new and bloat. The thought of having to add a bucket load of shims....no thanks. My system currently does everything I need and more and is as snappy as a trap and I'll do my damnedest to keep it that way.

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Re: After the fact stories

#34 Post by steve_v »

Wheelerof4te wrote:What about system performance, is it lacking in any way?
If you call a 3 minute wait at shutdown a performance problem, yes.
If you call increased memory consumption a performance problem, yes.
If you call increased idle CPU use a performance problem, yes.
Wheelerof4te wrote:What problem does systemd pose for you when you hate it so much that you don't want to use it?
It stifles my freedom to run an init system of my choosing.
It makes the boot process difficult to follow and to modify.
It adds failure-prone and unneeded complexity and attack surface.
It's required by a huge number of debian packages for no good reason.
It gets on my nerves. I simply don't like it, the entire design smells.
Wheelerof4te wrote:If not, maybe consider buying a better PC?
If your answer to code bloat and scope creep is "buy a faster PC"... I have no words. At least no printable ones anyway.

If you like systemd, then you should be free to run it, without a bunch of collateral damage.
I don't like systemd, and I should be free to not run it, without a bunch of collateral damage.

The problem is, I can't not run systemd without loosing a whole lot of other things that have absolutely nothing to do with systemd.
If it was optional, we wouldn't be having this argument. Why is it not optional?

oswaldkelso wrote:The whole shim thing is useful to know but a symptom of the much bigger issue of straying from the Unix philosophy.
Word.
oswaldkelso wrote:This is not just about systemd. We're seeing the same thing needed in Firefox re-PA. None of this should be necessary.
Indeed. I doubt it's a coincidence that systemd and pulseaudio are both from RedHat. Products of the same developer even.
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Re: After the fact stories

#35 Post by Wheelerof4te »

steve_v wrote:If you call a 3 minute wait at shutdown a performance problem, yes.If you call increased memory consumption a performance problem, yes.If you call increased idle CPU use a performance problem, yes.
Timeout can be reduced, and it doesn't happen often anymore. Not much anyway.
Increased memory consumption? By what margins now? Aren't you maybe attributing it to general newer software memory consumption? Have you run valid benchmarks on the same system?
Increased idle CPU use is the same as above. I even attribute it to pulseaudio or some other process, rather than systemd.
steve_v wrote:It stifles my freedom to run an init system of my choosing.
Not really. There are good systemd-free distros now, and there were before. (Wheezy)
steve_v wrote:It makes the boot process difficult to follow and to modify.
If there is a problem, it will be clearly visible in red (unless you enabled "quiet"). If not, there are journald logs.
steve_v wrote:It adds failure-prone and unneeded complexity and attack surface.
And your answer is to run decades old code which has many known flaws and will not be maintained officially ever?
steve_v wrote:It's required by a huge number of debian packages for no good reason.
See above. And it's installed by default now in Debian, what did you expect?
steve_v wrote:It gets on my nerves. I simply don't like it, the entire design smells.
So don't use systems that run it. Why would a piece of free software get on your nerves, anyway?
steve_v wrote:If your answer to code bloat and scope creep is "buy a faster PC"... I have no words. At least no printable ones anyway.
And if your answer is to forever be running an old Pentium build with 1 GB RAM, then I too really don't have words for your ignorance. No wonder everything seems slow for you and some other people here. The 32-bit arch is dying, you can't do computing on the potato PC anymore. I know, I had a potato until 2015th.
steve_v wrote:Indeed. I doubt it's a coincidence that systemd and pulseaudio are both from RedHat. Products of the same developer even.
First Red Hat, and now Mozzila too? Wow man...who needs FOSS browser and the world's largest and most profitable open source company, am I right? s/ Surely you know better than the people who actually code that free software. /s
Last edited by Wheelerof4te on 2018-01-10 21:24, edited 5 times in total.

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