After the fact stories

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Re: After the fact stories

Postby steve_v » 2018-01-12 05:46

Well I can now say that Devuan is a fine choice for a systemd-free server... and a large sack of frustration if you want to run modern Gnome or KDE and actually achieve anything useful with it.
I've now migrated across all 3 release channels, and none are up to running Plasma, Gnome3 or even Cinnamon properly. Mate runs pretty well, if you like a 15 year old DE and don't mind the odd "issue" with the display manager.
XFCE runs very well, at least as far as i have tested it. Not really a big fan though, unless I need something to put on properly anaemic hardware.

Overall, it's better than I expected. I'll probably keep it on my "canary" fileserver. But I couldn't recommend it as a desktop distro unless you're nostalgic for that 1999 style "mostly works" experience.
I guess I'll wait and see if the stable ascii release fixes any of this. XLennart is keeping me entertained in the meantime. :twisted:

Is it just me, or is the spambot activity unusually heavy in here today?
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2018-01-12 06:38

steve_v wrote:is the spambot activity unusually heavy in here today?

Oh yes :cry:

On topic: despite my dislike of systemd, I've been running it on family laptop (Debian stable) for over three years now with no trouble at all.
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby n_hologram » 2018-01-12 12:22

Speaking of init systems, has anyone tried sinit? I wanted to use it in my VM, but booting it threw an execvp error that I couldn't diagnose at the time. I really like the philosophy behind the init, though.
bester69 wrote:There is nothing to install in linux, from time to time i go to google searching for something fresh to install in linux, but, there is nothing

the crunkbong project: scripts, operating system, the list goes on...
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby golinux » 2018-01-12 16:20

steve_v wrote:Well I can now say that Devuan is a fine choice for a systemd-free server...
Exactly. Early on there was discussion of dropping desktop support entirely from Devuan. But USERS took up the challenge to provide functional desktop/WM options that could be included.
. . . and a large sack of frustration if you want to run modern Gnome or KDE and actually achieve anything useful with it.
Did you even consider turning that frustration into ACTION? Or do you just want to sit back and be a passive consumer that's handed a shiny, shiny OOTB?? I haven't seen any recent KDE discussion on IRC, mailing list or much on the forum so I would say that your efforts to work things out have been minimal.
I've now migrated across all 3 release channels, and none are up to running Plasma, Gnome3 or even Cinnamon properly.
And they won't until someone LIKE YOU who wants to use those behemoths takes on the challenge to fix them.
Mate runs pretty well, if you like a 15 year old DE and don't mind the odd "issue" with the display manager.
There's that shiny, shiny mentality again. ;)
XFCE runs very well, at least as far as i have tested it. Not really a big fan though, unless I need something to put on properly anaemic hardware.
Xfce runs really well. I see you like shiny, shiny hardware too.
Overall, it's better than I expected. I'll probably keep it on my "canary" fileserver. But I couldn't recommend it as a desktop distro unless you're nostalgic for that 1999 style "mostly works" experience.
I guess I'll wait and see if the stable ascii release fixes any of this.
It won't unless someone like YOU wants to scratch that itch.

Now you can go back to playing XLennart. :D
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby steve_v » 2018-01-12 19:38

golinux wrote:Did you even consider turning that frustration into ACTION?
A couple of days of "action", before realising that the required components simply do not exist. I have a day job.

golinux wrote:And they won't until someone LIKE YOU who wants to use those behemoths takes on the challenge to fix them.
As far as I can see, it's not about "fixing" anything. A component to provide the missing interfaces on the bus simply doesn't exist, and nobody is working on one. I have neither the time nor the skill (aka time) to start that. See comment on day job.
The attitude to missing functionality here appears to be either a) use an ancient version of the offending component, or b) invent reasons that no-one actually needs it in the first place.
Perhaps I'm misinterpreting that, but documentation on the state of various packages and the changes made to fix them is simply non existent. The documentation that does exist looks suspiciously like a straight up sed -e 's/debian/devuan/g'.

golinux wrote:There's that shiny, shiny mentality again.
I hated gnome 2.x when it was first released, and I still hate it now. If KDE4, or even KDE3 was in the repos (and worked), that would do fine.
My dislike of Mate is not about age, per se, but about the ridiculous removing of features and customisability that started in gnome around v2.0. Mate is based on a gnome from that period, and it shows.

golinux wrote:It won't unless someone like YOU wants to scratch that itch.
Right. So it works on a server, xfce works, nobody wants anything more. Cool, shall we just call it done then?
If that's really the way it is, you should have dropped desktop support.

If, as you say, a real desktop working on devuan is dependent on my efforts alone, then sorry, I don't have that much free time.
If development of such features is already going on somewhere where I can contribute the time I do have, let me know and I'll join the team.
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby n_hologram » 2018-01-12 20:13

@steve_v: I have installed KDE4 in Devuan before, and never experienced any issues. You should try it out sometime.

As far as dropping support for desktop, most lightweight, portable (as in porting to another *nix) environments run fine, so that seems like an odd suggestion. I have a pretty demanding day job, but would take a from-scratch openbox/dwm desktop any day over a mainstream one, and devuan is preferable for such a goal.
bester69 wrote:There is nothing to install in linux, from time to time i go to google searching for something fresh to install in linux, but, there is nothing

the crunkbong project: scripts, operating system, the list goes on...
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby steve_v » 2018-01-12 20:18

n_hologram wrote:I have installed KDE4 in Devuan before, and never experienced any issues.
On Jessie, sure. But Jessies libc is too old for other things I need, so...
On that, I'm seriously considering going back to slackware, which has both.
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby n_hologram » 2018-01-12 20:46

Slackware is legit. What DE and Debian version are you currently running?
bester69 wrote:There is nothing to install in linux, from time to time i go to google searching for something fresh to install in linux, but, there is nothing

the crunkbong project: scripts, operating system, the list goes on...
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby steve_v » 2018-01-12 20:53

n_hologram wrote:What DE and Debian version are you currently running?
Plasma 5.10 on buster/testing, because Plasma 5.8.6 (stable) is full of bugs and KDE4 is not available on anything newer than Jessie.

And yeah, I started out with Slackware, back in '98. Got kinda used to the automation (apt, mainly) in Debian though.
Alienbob's slackware-live iso is downloading now.
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby Mad_7 » 2018-01-12 21:16

n_hologram wrote:@steve_v: I have installed KDE4 in Devuan before, and never experienced any issues. You should try it out sometime.

If you're like me and you worked with KDE3 at past, you may want to try Trinity desktop as well.
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby n_hologram » 2018-01-12 21:46

I have, actually. It's a solid project. KDE3/5 really aren't my cup of tea, though, but if KDE3 were, I'd probably run Trinity ^_^
bester69 wrote:There is nothing to install in linux, from time to time i go to google searching for something fresh to install in linux, but, there is nothing

the crunkbong project: scripts, operating system, the list goes on...
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby HuangLao » 2018-01-12 21:56

steve_v wrote:
n_hologram wrote:What DE and Debian version are you currently running?
Plasma 5.10 on buster/testing, because Plasma 5.8.6 (stable) is full of bugs and KDE4 is not available on anything newer than Jessie.

And yeah, I started out with Slackware, back in '98. Got kinda used to the automation (apt, mainly) in Debian though.
Alienbob's slackware-live iso is downloading now.


:D
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=134342&hilit=options+for+wheezy

there is also Salix which uses slapt-get and gslapt (graphical, similar to synaptic), also has extra packages to save from compiling as much. Or you can use slapt-get with Slackware and use Salix as an extra repo. https://salixos.org/
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby steve_v » 2018-01-12 22:27

Probably the main thing holding back me re. Slackware is that mutilib is still a complete PITA. I'll take apt install <pkgname>:i386 over manually rebuilding packages from the 32bit distro anyday.
I don't mind slackbuilds / compiling so long as the bulk of what I need has binaries. I ran LFS for a while - entertaining, but not something I want to repeat right now.

Salix seems ever more keen to eradicate QT from their repos as late, and AFAIK they don't package KDE at all any more. So that leaves running Slackware + Salix repos and ending up with a bit of a mess WRT package managers.
I''ll have to experiment to see how well slapt-get works in practice.
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby HuangLao » 2018-01-12 22:34

steve_v wrote:Probably the main thing holding back me re. Slackware is that mutilib is still a complete PITA. I'll take apt install <pkgname>:i386 over manually rebuilding packages from the 32bit distro anyday.
I don't mind slackbuilds / compiling so long as the bulk of what I need has binaries. I ran LFS for a while - entertaining, but not something I want to repeat right now.

Salix seems ever more keen to eradicate QT from their repos as late, and AFAIK they don't package KDE at all any more. So that leaves running Slackware + Salix repos and ending up with a bit of a mess WRT package managers.
I''ll have to experiment to see how well slapt-get works in practice.


alienbob (Eric H. a Slackware dev.) packages multilib, easy to use.
http://slackware.uk/people/alien/multilib/14.2/
https://docs.slackware.com/slackware:multilib
https://alien.slackbook.org/blog/

regarding Salix, their qt and KDE packages come straight from Slackware and since KDE is a popular DE with Slackware dev.'s its not going away anytime soon.... One can use the Salix install CD and either install full (Xfce) and then add KDE after booting into new OS, or choose basic or core and build up similar to Debian net install.
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby golinux » 2018-01-13 10:20

steve_v wrote:I have a day job.
Most of the devs at Devuan do also.

I have neither the time nor the skill (aka time) to start that. See comment on day job.
See comment on day job.

The attitude to missing functionality here appears to be either a) use an ancient version of the offending component, or b) invent reasons that no-one actually needs it in the first place.
'Want' is different from 'need' though they are often confused.

I hated gnome 2.x when it was first released, and I still hate it now.
I didn't mind gnome2. Gnome3 was a different story.

If KDE4, or even KDE3 was in the repos (and worked), that would do fine.
You can get Trinity DE here. There has been discussion of getting it packaged for Devuan but no one has stepped forward to do it.

My dislike of Mate is not about age, per se, but about the ridiculous removing of features and customisability that started in gnome around v2.0. Mate is based on a gnome from that period, and it shows.
We've all got that you don't like it. So don't use it. A lot of Devuan users do like and use it.

Right. So it works on a server, xfce works, nobody wants anything more. Cool, shall we just call it done then?
In addition to Xfce and Mate, WMs like openbox, i3, xdm etc. are quite popular with Devuan users. Other options aren't available because no one there wants (or "needs" LOL) them.

If that's really the way it is, you should have dropped desktop support.
Why? We have plenty of happy Desktop/WM users.

If, as you say, a real desktop working on devuan is dependent on my efforts alone, then sorry, I don't have that much free time. If development of such features is already going on somewhere where I can contribute the time I do have, let me know and I'll join the team.
That would depend on your definition of a 'REAL' desktop. ;) AntoFox is working on Cinnamon. Feel free to fork and improve the elements you found non-functional. But I suspect the other options like Slackware would suit you better.
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