After the fact stories

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Re: After the fact stories

Postby steve_v » 2018-01-10 17:10

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:contrary to popular bullshit the binary logs can be read directly with strings(1) and then processed with grep & awk & sed
Huh, I never thought to try that, thanks.
It's still a complicated un-Unixlike abomination though, with a huge number of functions (and potential bugs) that have no place whatsoever in an init system.
Simple flexible tools are always better. Strings, grep, awk & sed > systemtext.
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby GarryRicketson » 2018-01-10 17:19

Apart from the systemd part of it, "After the fact stories", look at how many
posts this forum has about disasters, and "important data" that is lost, because
the administrator did not have enough sense to even make a back up before they start messing around with things they do not understand.
And then they get upset when it pointed out the whole problem is PBCAK,....
The systemd promoters , pushers , are about the same, they are refusing to
admit or accept the fact that they are headed in the wrong direction.
Unless of course the entire community of "Unix like" system users wants to revert back to a MS windows like failure.
I honestly, really have tried to give the newer systemd a chance and try it,
but it just plain does not work for me. Of course for those that like it, and seem to be having success, no problem as well, "go for it". Nobody is forced or obligated to use a system they don't like.
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby RU55EL » 2018-01-10 17:23

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:[...] contrary to popular bullshit the binary logs can be read directly with strings(1) and then processed with grep & awk & sed (oh my!)[...]


That is very interesting! I would have never thought to try that, thanks!
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby Mad_7 » 2018-01-10 17:54

I hate systemd too! :lol:
What bugs me most, is that noone explained me, why brutally violating one of the most basic Unix philosophy (one tool, for one thing) and turning on to software suites.
(Still being on Jessie) I've disable systemd and I don't use it at all.
If this is not possible at future versions, I'll (regrettably) have move to another distribution (Devuan, PCLinux, etc).

Being said that, the sad thing is, that many people left Debian for other distros.
Look at the Wiki. Seems abandoned and poorly (if not at all) maintained.
It's really hard to find any related information for the stable version. It contains all kind of topics, for oldstable, oldoldstable etc.
When I had to find informations the last year, I had to google and find them at other places (Arch and Ubuntu wikis, Linux Questions etc).

I'm wondering if systemd was our (or Debian) Nemesis!
For the glorious men, every land is a grave.
Pericles' Funeral Oration. Thucydides.
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby steve_v » 2018-01-10 18:00

GarryRicketson wrote:Nobody is forced or obligated to use a system they don't like.
This is the problem, if everyone just stays quiet and "deals with it" (systemd), there's a very real possibility that this franken-daemon will become mandatory if you want to run any of the big distros, DEs or large software packages.
Yes there are distros that don't use it by default, but as more and more software becomes dependent on it, running one of those becomes increasingly limiting. It's removing flexibility and granularity of choice. Hell, it pretty much killed kFreeBSD.
And for what? Does anyone here have a real, pressing need that is filled by systemd? A serious problem that it has solved?
I can think of plenty that it has caused.
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2018-01-10 18:05

steve_v wrote:as more and more software becomes dependent on it, running one of those becomes increasingly limiting

I'm not sure about that — Alpine recently added the GNOME desktop to their repositories, without systemd (just like OpenBSD do it):
Code: Select all
~$ apk search systemd
haproxy-systemd-wrapper-1.7.9-r1
~$

There's no way Alpine will ever switch to systemd because it's too bloated for their container-obsessed user base and I'm sure the same is true for Void & Tiny Core.
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby steve_v » 2018-01-10 18:20

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:Alpine recently added the GNOME desktop to their repositories, without systemd (just like OpenBSD do it):
Can't say I have a burning desire to run gnome in particular, but this is promising.
Shame the Debian team wasn't so sensible.
Alpine doesn't really sound that appealing as a general-purpose desktop though, I'd associate musl & busybox more with embedded applications. Have you actually used it as a desktop?
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2018-01-10 18:22

steve_v wrote:Have you actually used it as a desktop?

Using it now :D

It does pretty much everything I need except Steam, they even have Kodi :)
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby steve_v » 2018-01-10 18:30

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:It does pretty much everything I need except Steam, they even have Kodi :)

Really? All compiled against musl libc? :shock:
What about proprietary binaries compiled against glibc? I do run a couple of non-free apps I can't get source for, and some games...
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby golinux » 2018-01-10 18:31

GarryRicketson wrote:Nobody is forced or obligated to use a system they don't like.
For the moment. But that choice could disappear in the grip of a corporate stranglehold masquerading as "open source".
May the FORK be with you!
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2018-01-10 18:32

steve_v wrote:What about proprietary binaries compiled against glibc?

https://wiki.alpinelinux.org/wiki/Runni ... c_programs

^ I use that method to run Dungeon Crawl, I haven't managed to get permissions for the graphics card to work through the chroot so that Steam will run but I haven't given up yet :mrgreen:
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby golinux » 2018-01-10 19:01

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:"To be free is nothing, to become free is everything." — Hegel
I'd like to add . . . to remain free is the challenge because freedom is easily lost and its absence only recognized when it is too late. Remain vigilant and understand that comfort and complacency will accelerate freedom's demise.
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby steve_v » 2018-01-10 19:05

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:I haven't managed to get permissions for the graphics card to work through the chroot

That's a showstopper, and chroot for glibc is just ugly, I might as well run the distro I'm chrooting into.
It sounded pretty tempting for a minute there, but I'm back to musl & buisybox != desktop distro.

It's kinda beside the point anyway - the big distros need to offer a choice, preferably at install-time, as to whether systemd is installed. This must include the libraries, not just what's in PID1.
The choice between installing systemd or loosing the option of using a bunch of completely unrelated software is utter bullshit.
This should never have happened, and and it only did happen because all the big distros caved and followed RH like obedient little sheep.

As far as i can see, there is not a single distro that ships KDE5 without systemd, and only a handful of obscure or otherwise limiting options that ship GNOME. W.T.F? How the hell did we end up here?
Please, correct me if I'm wrong about this, I'm still looking for a systemd-free distro that doesn't drop KDE. Any suggestions?
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby golinux » 2018-01-10 19:18

steve_v wrote:Please, correct me if I'm wrong about this, I'm still looking for a systemd-free distro that doesn't drop KDE. Any suggestions?
Someone has gotten KDE plasma running on Devuan. It is only available post-install. YMMV, of course. You can also search the DNG mail list and the #devuan botbot logs for more info if you're interested. I know that quite a few over at Devuan are using KDE (why I'll never understand though).
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Re: After the fact stories

Postby steve_v » 2018-01-10 19:30

golinux wrote:Someone has gotten KDE plasma running on Devuan.
Sounds like a pretty loose use of the term "running" to me. Includes the phrase "not ready for daily usage". Might try it though.

golinux wrote:(why I'll never understand though).
I feel the same way about GNOME. :P


Ed. Nope, still way too much stuff missing / broken in devuan. Can't even run it on my home server without loosing functionality, because I need backports. This is ridiculous.
Why the **** does zoneminder need systemd? Did someone put that dependency in there just to be a jerk or what?
Last edited by steve_v on 2018-01-10 20:03, edited 1 time in total.
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