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[<(DmC)>]

ah GGGRRRRrrrrrr I hate when that happens

like what? offtopic discussions?

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[<(DmC)>]

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we want the cake and the icing - keep doing everything that we currently do, the way we do it now and some miracle that makes the problems go away

obviously, your "we" doesn't refer to mankind in general, eh? i am just curious who you mean by "we"... pluralis majestatis maybe? Razz

I think I would describe "we' as "mankind "in "gerneral"''' That includes me too. I do my share of wasting precious resources on trivial trinkets. {Save}

yo, i just thought that most people on earth do not waste a lot of stuff because they do not have a lot to waste. they don't waste loads and loads of energy because they have neither cars, nor microwaves. they don't waste fresh water because they don't have any. they also don't waste their time pointing these things out in forums because they don't have a computer at home and need to be concerned with how to get some food on the table instead of surfing the web. - i find it wrong to say that every one of us (us=we=mankind) is wasteful and doesn't want to give up the "high" standart of living which is achieved by wasting energy, because most of us don't even have cake or icing. the waste of recources is not the fault of the poor.
it is my fault because i live (and always have lived) in first world countries and even though i try to do my little part to be better than my surroundings, i don't generally reject "the system" enaugh in my everyday life. i am a part of it and i am guilty. i spend money which helps the economy which destroys the environment. however, it is reassuring to know, that my day of decay will come. it might be far, but it will surely come...

Oh, I could go on about the things I do to reuse everything I can think of (how to reuse it) as many times as I can get some use from it. Or about how I do things differently than most everyone I know, regarding many environmental issues. composting gardening, mechanical work ie: cars, small engines, bicycles, electrical, plumbing, computers. I find myself having to do these things becasue I can't get anyone to do them the way I want them done, so I have to do them myself. Most other people around me tend to think I'm I bit over the edge becasue I try to do (its seems ) everything myself. {save} but I also find it difficult to change my wastfulness, becasue it is generally accepted as a norm. (What ya gonna do?) Honda was supposed to release a Fuel Cell car in 2002. Honda FC "fc=fuel cell" I wonder if there is anything on the honda site about it anymore, probably not. I'm still waiting!!!

yes, i try to do as many things for myself as i can as well. i think that is very good because it also connects me with the things i own and do a lot more, so they become more important to me. i look after my belongings with care, because they are a part of my life. they are not something that can be replaced easily by buying something new or haveing an "expert" come in for lots of money to fix things in a "proper" way.
many things get a certain sentimental value for me when i worked on them myself that other people won't ever experience as long as they distance themselves from the do-it-yourself way.

so long,

[GMouse]

What worries me is the habits of developed countries combined with the economic advancement of other countries. China is starting to consume large amounts of resources, and other places are up and coming. For instance, I rather doubt that Africa will forever remain the economic cesspit that it is. All it takes is a little political stability and some free markets, and it'll boom like China is booming now.

[Jackiebrown]

I don't know how many here remember we went through a oil crises back in the 1970s under another stupid president called Nixon.

Stupidity is bi-partism. Remember the second oil crisis and Carter?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_energy_crisis

[Lavene]

EDIT:

There are a million minor changes one can make to the lifestyle that will have a huge impact on the environment. But of course... people don't want to do that. They want to cry out to everyone else demanding change.

Tina

once again, i generally agree with you... however, there is a reason that often depresses me when i consider my impact. in terms of pollution for example, but also in terms of energy consumption, it is demoralizing to me to think how little the individuals contribute when compared to the effects induced by large companies. freight ships dump tons of waste into the oceans. all sorts of plants and factories distribute smoke in the atmosphere and toxic liquids in the rivers. even the honorable task of recycling is often very energy-demanding... nonetheless, it is irreplacable for every individual to reduce their own "footprint". it just depresses me to think about the big picture sometimes...

so depressed greetings,

A lot (actually, most) of people feel that way. "I can't make a difference" which of course is totally false. Just because someone is polluting more than you does not mean that your contribution is worthless. You have to be realistic. Shutting down every 'dirty' plant or factory is not very realistic, but for millions of people sitting in their car, in a traffic jam, it's highly realistic to use other means of transportation. And getting a few million cars will make a good impact. A small contribution by a lot of people is highly significant. But of course, it's always 'the others' that should do something...

Tina

[dmn_clown]

imho it is indeed important to recognize that "alternative fuel" is not that much of an alternative because it still needs to be produced somehow, which usually is very energy-consuming in the first place.
if anyone is interested in the end of the oil-age and the scientific future that is linked to it, i recommend the movie "the end of suburbia", which only focusses on the effects of the US, though...

anyway, have a good day everyone.

E85 isn't a viable alternative because there isn't enough arable land to grow the crops that it is made from, let alone the fuel required for the distillation process. There were two studies released last year (IIRC) that conveniently pointed out that even if every section of arable land was used to grow the crops only 12% of US requirements would be replaced and ~15% of European requirements would be replaced. (The European study even went so far as to include the medians of major highways).

Both studies were done using existing technology.

Unfortunately it may come down to a choice, do the farmers grow crops for fuel or food?

A small contribution by a lot of people is highly significant. But of course, it's always 'the others' that should do something...

I think (or at least I hope) that those of us that are complaining about the problems have already made the necessary changes to our lifestyle.

Remember also, that oil or more correctly petroleum also fuelled a of technological revolutions post-WWII, things like solvents, fertilizers, pesticides, and plastics, thus giving birth to the "plastic lifestyle" we all led. Hey are you using a plastic laptop? Can you dispose of it?

It should be pointed out that not all plastic is petroleum based, and a sizable chunk of the plastic products in use now are made from recycled plastics.

Who throws out computer components? Almost everything can be re-used for something.

[garrincha]

It should be pointed out that not all plastic is petroleum based, and a sizable chunk of the plastic products in use now are made from recycled plastics.

Who throws out computer components? Almost everything can be re-used for something.

Yeah it's true that plastic products does not necessarily came from petroleum. Plastic is by technical definition polymer - that so named long chained molecules, so there are many sources of it both natural and synthetic. Recycled plastic may be in vogue today, these are mainly thermoplastics, works are going on to create biodegradable ones. There are limited though on recycled plastic - toxicity and impurity will hamper it. However, there are still millions of ton of plastic from previous decades still on this planet and these are hard to break down and will take eon to completely decay.

[garrincha]

We don't have to move back to the stone age to make a huge difference. I do however try to du my share:
Tina

Heh, that's true and no I wasn't accusing anyone of anything or asking them to don Flintstone lifestyle!

I have never drove a car in my life (sound pathetic huh? Even my eldest brother was incredulous and he drives a 4x4). I used to ride a motorbike for a few years, other than that I just ride a bicycle. Hardly anything in my household goes to waste including food. I wear the same wrist-watch that I had since '97 and will keep wearing it, and the same set of clothes & shoes most since 2000, some since 1980s. I own an old 1970s Pentax k1000 that's still work beautifully. I only go for a hair cut once every 3 or 4 months (at least now my hair doesn't grow quickly into a lion-like mane as in my younger days). I stopped smoking entirely since 2002 and only feed my addiction with a lot of coffee and glasses of red.

Basically, it's all about individual behaviour and it's having impact on our environment much more acutely than all other kingdom of mammals.

[AgenT]

We don't have to move back to the stone age to make a huge difference. I do however try to du my share:
Tina

Heh, that's true and no I wasn't accusing anyone of anything or asking them to don Flintstone lifestyle!

I have never drove a car in my life (sound pathetic huh? Even my eldest brother was incredulous and he drives a 4x4). I used to ride a motorbike for a few years, other than that I just ride a bicycle. Hardly anything in my household goes to waste including food. I wear the same wrist-watch that I had since '97 and will keep wearing it, and the same set of clothes & shoes most since 2000, some since 1980s. I own an old 1970s Pentax k1000 that's still work beautifully. I only go for a hair cut once every 3 or 4 months (at least now my hair doesn't grow quickly into a lion-like mane as in my younger days). I stopped smoking entirely since 2002 and only feed my addiction with a lot of coffee and glasses of red.

Basically, it's all about individual behaviour and it's having impact on our environment much more acutely than all other kingdom of mammals.

That is very impressive indeed! I must say that to some extent, what is and is not feasable is also based on ones location. In most of the world, not having an automobile is not out of the question and is actually quite common. In a country such as the USA, not having a personal automobile (car) is almost out of the question in all but a few select cities - and even then, sooner or later one will have to go outside the city and rent a car. This is very unfortunate for those that live in such a place. Just another one of those things that takes away freedom. A double edged sword: in one sense, the automobile gives freedom, but in another (and a much more serious way), it takes it away. But that seems to go for all technology, even computers. Once it becomes normal and part of daily life, daily life starts to build around and accomodate to it in such a way that it no longer takes into consideration not having it. Once it is so intrenched, living without it becomes very difficult or mostly impossible.