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Postby jibberjabber » 2018-11-01 00:14

I was looking at another topic, and noticed : "Rant" , and it was interesting in a way. However did not want to derail the topic so decided to comment here.
So here is what I read,
Look at all that DNS complexity. Linux used to be strong because it was simple. You put your nameservers into resolv.conf and they stayed there until you changed your mind. Now a certain company is flooding Linux with all these "improvements", systemd, PulseAudio, avahi, whatnot. Result, Linux is getting Windows-like.

Agreed, but on the other hand, isn't that what so many new users used to all ways be crying about,.." Oh but I was able to do this or that on windows,..."..
I don't remember the exact count, but Sooo many times, I have seen Windows users complaining because Linux does not work like their beloved windows, and saying "More people would use Linux, if only it was more user friendly, like windows ", etc.
OK so now Linux has done so much to attract the windows mentality, and is more like what the "main stream" follow the crowd folks demand, ...
I noticed this , my self, years ago when MS first released the earliest Windows:
Configuration changes unexpectedly, things that used just to work don't work any more, system that didn't need any maintenance suddenly has a life in its own and demands tinkering by admin to keep it working.

I had tried it on top of my Dos system, since everyone was talking about how great it was, bla,bla,bla,... but I soon started seeing all sorts of weird things going on, and my system that had been really "maintance free" and reliable, started getting "out of control", ...so any way, removed the MS windows, and that solved the problems. Never did look back or try the other versions as they were released.
Then a period of several years went by, and my boss at work bought me a new computer, a Laptop, but it had Windows XP pre-installed, I gave it a try, but in a week it had been taken over by viruses,and mal-ware, so I installed FreeDos, used the entire drive, "bye bye Windows,viruses,malware",... Back then, Linux had some pretty good distros, and it was suggested to me to give one a try, so I did, and it was OK, I liked it, especially because it was Unix like, and Unix had all ways been VERY friendly to me, not just Unix the OS, but many, many Unix users, all ways were very friendly, and help full. Even a couple of Unix system admins, whom had not been very friendly at all, got very friendly, and cooperative, after I took the time and expense to buy a book, read and study it, then showed them I had figured out a solution, without their help or permission, but that is another story .
Ok, so then further down in the topic, the OP says:
Also like you said in your later rant things have gotten complicated in linux, especially networking stuff
and I'm not even sure whats being used for networking now and what isn't cause there is multiple network interfaces in /etc/
I was going to read this but I'm not even sure whats relevant anymore.

Yea, me tooo, me also, not really sure what is relevant any more , especially when it comes to Linux issues, I do know that I have found and started using another OS, much more Unix like then Linux is, and much more simple as well, but I guess that also would be another topic, and another forum. It is not a "popular" OS, and the "mainstream crowd" that must have the most current, popular gimmicks going , would not consider it a use able OS, nor user friendly, but the simplicity, security, make it very user friendly to me.
So any way, that is the end of my rant,.. like the title says "rant", any other rants are welcome, as long as they stay within the forum guidelines;
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Re: Rant

Postby bw123 » 2018-11-01 01:22

My rant would start: "There's no point in ranting."

The idea of desktop linux is fine, I support that. I just liked the debian way. There is so much freedesktop crap now in basic tools to use a "desktop" system, It took me a solid week to do my last install... and I only setup fluxbox with a couple browsers, av tools, email, rss, and irc client. It's really hard to decide whether to install "bloated pkgA" which is 30 mb of 50 dependencies, or "bloated pkgB" which is 50 mb of 30 dependencies. There aren't enough good, simple tools. Everything pulls in samba and cups for some reason? wtf.. I have no idea what avahi is, sounds like a day camp my sister used to go to. Camp Avahi? d-bus? polkit? sheesh, who has the time? root should run stuff as root, not the user through some complicated backdoor.

Much of the "development" going on looks like they just dump new stuff in the repo, they don't really seem to "debianize" much anymore. This is probably just not enough workers available. I wish I could help, but you know, there's no point. The decision has been made, rapid development, full speed ahead. Automaticupdate everybody by default and let them do the best they can...

We don't want "debian 10" to be too far behind the other OS version 10, now do we? What a silly game to play. Debian used to be about quality, "it's ready when it's ready."

/usr/share/doc has pretty much become a dumping ground for two changelogs... Man pages are on the way out. If you want help, <<click this>> and it will take you to some blind link on the internet, with a quiz that asks you whether it was helpful or not? You can't chose yes or no without javascript, and the page is barely readable if you don;t have the right browser.

There's no point ranting because debian has pretty much become a clone of every bad idea that made it necessary (for me) to begin with. They attacked the menu system, and made it obsolete, alternative system is a mess because of xdg, seem to be quickly moving away from ifupdown and /etc/default, certainly sysvinit is on it's last legs. I can't even depend on shift-ins to paste selection into apps anymore. Gtk+3.0++4+2 spams me constantly with errors, and I don;t even remember installing it? What's next? I spent a pretty good amount of time learning how to use these debianisms, just a waste of time.

The only satisfaction I get is from knowing that the names and the decisions are all documented, and looking back, I know who did this. I know who tried to stop them. I send the good ones an email now and then, and mess with the bad ones when I get a chance...

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Re: Rant

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2018-11-01 06:04

bw123 wrote:avahi

Aaargh! My nemesis :x

I also agree about the dependency overload, it's even worse in OpenBSD — Alpine Linux has the only package manager that acts sanely, IMO.
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Re: Rant

Postby Funkygoby » 2018-11-01 16:34

jibberjabber wrote:I don't remember the exact count, but Sooo many times, I have seen Windows users complaining because Linux does not work like their beloved windows, and saying "More people would use Linux, if only it was more user friendly, like windows ", etc.

This is something that I never understood.
If someone feels that Windows is more potent than Linux, then why is he even bothering with Linux.
Same thing goes with Ubuntu vs Debian as: "Ubuntu just works whereas Debian is a pain to configure. Why can't Debian just mimic Ubuntu?!"
I believe this is often a result of a lack of education. When you actually try a system, you realize that what you though was a weakness is actually a feature (Debian stable "obsolescence" is in fact "stability")
My opinion is that any FOSS project should thrive to focus on its strengths, rather than pleasing the whole world. By chasing the last fad, you betray your userbase (at least a part of it), you give up what makes you special and you start to blend into the standard, mediocre, already existing solutions.

Another thing that saddens me is the: "It's FOSS. Nobody is forcing you to use it. Just fork it or switch to another solution."
One can not just fork or jump ship when one has put years developing his workflow with a specific system.
Also, if a change result in a community crisis and an exodus, maybe the ones who should depart should be the ones that brought the change ? If you want to turn Debian into Ubuntu, use Ubuntu instead ?
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