Have people gone crazy with specs?

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Re: Have people gone crazy with specs?

Postby stevepusser » 2020-02-22 02:27

Deb-fan wrote:Such is also a reason I opt for the ondemand power governor in gnu/nix. I tune it so it'll step up freqs much sooner than it would with the defaults and stays there longer before down shifting than stock settings but majority of time the cores are staying at lowest freq until put under load. The premise of the performance governor grates on my nerves. Having cores full bore all times just seems needless.


You need to learn a bit more of how the p_state power governor puts the CPU into halt modes, then, even under performance. Powertop can help you.

I have a fairly recent and powerful six-core/twelve-thread 16 GB 2018 gaming laptop with an SSD and a spinning rust drive, and build many "heavy" packages for MX Linux repositories on it that have it running full steam for many hours at a time--Debian upstream kernel backports, Waterfox, Pale Moon, MAME, Liquorix kernels, Libreoffice, openjdk backports no longer done by Debian, Virtual Box, and so on--those are just some I've done recently. I just wish the Nvidia GPU could somehow be drafted into helping with the compiling. Luckily, it has a very nice cooling solution, has never overheated on even a hot day, and turned out to be very compatible with Linux despite total uninterest from MSI whether it was or not. I need the speed.

Before you start laughing about water-cooled machines, research about what's in the heat pipes in practically every computer first...

I will agree that most people don't need that kind of horsepower on a daily basis...but most people don't need to waste a hundred times as much energy and money driving around alone in a massive SUV or pickup either. Pick your targets.
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Re: Have people gone crazy with specs?

Postby Deb-fan » 2020-02-22 07:29

^No worries I know about all that, newer Intel pstate, older and mines 10yrs and Amd default to ondemand which have learned more than a tad about tuning by this point. Compared to many can set the thing to sing and dance. :) Personally like it more so than the others as a result. Pretty much like userspace or can tune it to whatever. Pstate isn't an option here. Again no worries. Still think many of you guys are coming up short on your ethical obligations, esp as open source users. For shame you guys or should I start calling you eco-terrorists!? If you have any principles at all you'll box up all those pollution spewing electronics and send them to me. So I can properly dispose of em and see they never harm our dear Earth again!

Errrr, is this working on anybody ? I can come up with some more. :)
Last edited by Deb-fan on 2020-02-22 09:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Have people gone crazy with specs?

Postby NFT5 » 2020-02-22 09:24

Deb-fan wrote:Errrr, is this working on anybody ? I can come up with some more. :)


Nah. That will get them going. :lol:
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Re: Have people gone crazy with specs?

Postby CwF » 2020-02-22 17:01

Guilty as charged. I confess.

When it's bad out, my grocery getter is a Duramax 6.6L diesel. Otherwise 2 wheels also on the excessive end of performance. For a decade I piled 220k+ on my ice road fiero, studded out to make fools of awd suv's.
NFT5 wrote:. Not too shabby from a 4 cylinder diesel that weighs in at 2800kg? I'm working on ways to get that time down around 5 seconds.

Maybe a Cruz? I'm looking forward to putting one of those in the back of the fiero. I can redo the pcm and ecm, imagine half your weight with all that torque! ...and mid engined to put it down! 50+mpg here I come! That's better than the bike!

Interestingly enough, things like tuning ecm's is exactly why I have some wicked computers. I noticed years ago, on my toughbook that had 5 external doohickeys to hook up to gm, chysler, cat, cummins, bombardier, mercedes...each one more costly than the computer, a few for operations on vehicles that cost more than a house, and these things are destined to be obsoleted. So, years back I chose KVM. It chose debian, it fits with my industrial duty bent. Debian does more for me now that I'm getting a handle on it, A+ I say.

So, running vm's solves the issue. Then I start imagining how could anyone take advantage of 2+ cores and 4GB? In line with the subject here. Like some others have mentioned, I too had dual's with scsi arrays since NT 3.5. Anyone remember a dual 486 Vtech? My NT cad box had dual monitors even! They make toys now? My dual P3's seemed enough forever.

Well, fast forward past the point when a computer could do everything to now when you need a few for different jobs. I go a different direction concerning multiple sbc's, it's not an efficient way to go. I've watch things develop having 5-8 computers on board, to 3, to 2, and every engineer has mentioned we wish we could get it down to one. Basically, once you have a few things (3-4) running that add up to 100W+, a single machine will be more efficient. My system can run a 4 core 4GB vm with ~15W. I won't boast my current specs, but 10 of those don't step on each other at all and run on 90-300W, scaling nicely with load. My 2 extra AMD video cards scale too, some don't and power up too much when not in use.

So not only have I built vehicle systems with power and thermal limits, but I take that thinking to whole home systems too. So overbuild, use a few xeons, castrate the smp, maybe restrict core count or clock to get the load within thermal limits so all fans can fail. Industrial, I expect 7 years up time.
real:
Code: Select all
$  uptime
 10:41:32 up 120 days, 19:45,  3 users,  load average: 1.36, 1.00, 0.81

stevepusser wrote: research about what's in the heat pipes in practically every computer first...

"Liquid" yes, water no. I built some thing starting with bulk heat pipes that I bend and fit to a custom aluminum case. Once I cracked one and didn't know until run time. It hissed. From the smell it was brake cleaner like perchlorel something..something that wicks well through the fibrous mesh like guts of the pipe, so also, it's not a empty tube with water. Maybe there are types?

Stability is against common sense. With massive complexity you'd expect my systems to be fragile. With kvm on debian and little else running on the host, it is perfectly stable. The vm's might not be, but I haven't taken out a host for a few years now. In one case, a piece of hardware would lock a few bare metal examples often on exit. In a vm, the hardware did the same thing, but I could reset it live, no reboot, much faster.

I can imagine a house server doing much of what a google dumb-terminal, aka smartphone can do. I prefer to keep the info local as well as the processing. So while I use higher end stuff, I use boring video cards, and a flip phone. I don't see extending the life of high end hardware as excessive, I consider more than $100 for a video card or a phone close to stupid. Yes I will hit 256GB of DDR3 long before I bother with DDR4. I haven't seen much speed improvement for a decade. The same job now is simply more power efficient. Old software doesn't use the advanced features so doesn't run much faster in its single thread. New software runs better, faster maybe, multicore, but not on old hardware. So apples and oranges really. So piling everything into one big box works well for me. I lived long enough far out of reach from anything other than a satellite. I appreciate local capabilities where outside links are optional and not required.

Faster? Not really, vm's lie. They can't count time sometimes. I have an xp bare metal monster to compare against. Much like a naked countach with 12 carbs, I can balance those for you! A dual X5687 with 24GB (~21GB pae ram drive) and 4GB amd pitcairn gpu. No vm so far comes close even though they claim to, lie lie lie. But that's a major draw to get the job done, like the countach, so I use a dual core vm that barely moves the needle. It does have a ramdrive too. A common smb available drive for the whole system, is 20GB's for $20-30 a decent deal? I think so.

Overall, I'll be the last guy to brag my i386 vm's use 300MB. It's a false economy. If they used twice, there would be no real impact. It's does what I need and is responsive, or it's not. I'm a pass/fail type, not a A for 300MB, and a C for 900MB. If the F example is 2GB idle, but works perfectly it passes. I might not use it, but not because it uses to much memory, I need it, or not.

Then the end result. There is never a time when anyone can't try something, do something, play something, watch something, where the situation is the computer is 'busy'. Not acceptable. Many sockets, many cores, terabytes, yes, any task can be done full speed while any other task(s) are also in progress. I will find the limits, it's my job. Every limit I find is an upgrade in waiting.

A note on clock control, other than the issue of generation specific factors, the motherboard bios, if complete, often has better controls than in OS user controls. Most Xeon boards I've worked with can limit or extend average clock better than user control. With SMP turned off, non-turbo limited and maybe some cores disabled, a xeon will go to max clock at a pin drop and hold it indefinitely. No lesser setup will match it. Yes, it is just like grocery getting in the duramax. Guilty.
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Re: Have people gone crazy with specs?

Postby stevepusser » 2020-02-23 02:53

Standard copper computer heat pipes have nothing but liquid water and water vapor after the air is evacuated and the tube sealed. No need at all for exotic chemicals when water's phase change already does a great job.
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Re: Have people gone crazy with specs?

Postby CwF » 2020-02-23 03:09

Well then there must be types. I'm referring to the 'good' ones. They have a mesh core. The liquid is something modified for surface tension I suppose. Wonderful phase change capacity can't do much it nothing motivates actual flow. So verses gravity, these work better with some kind of wick. A simple sealed tube with some water isn't what I've used.
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Re: Have people gone crazy with specs?

Postby Deb-fan » 2020-02-23 03:29

Guess it depends on the specific intent, best thermal dynamics involved going to vary. Thank gawds humanity isnt relying on me for all this. We'd all still be using abacus's. :) That having to use liquid nitrogen thing really drove that point home for me, jebuz! That's one thing really bugging me about this thing. It's so old doesnt support any real virtualization. Was just starting to get into kvm, when a guest decided to spill a drink on my laptop of the time. Almost snatched it up and busted the guy over the head with it. :) Am sure the look on my face was priceless. Must have had the potential for making meme history. Ah whatcha gonna do, the poor lappy was already a goner anyway.

Ironically was the only pc I've ever bothered buying new too. Still wasn't all that but did invest a decent bit of time spec'ing and selecting the dam thing for the fit I wanted.

So no vm's, could get away with a quasi vm, 32b crap thing, aka: virtualbox but forget that ... can't do it right, why do it at all? Should've taken a tad more time and gotten a system which would support virtual. Wanted a system right now-then though. No waiting for this ideal deal to come up, time dumped bidding, time for shipping blah, blah and the specs and price for cash and carry at the time were right. Which brings to mind CwF, remember you do seem to not mess around with these kind of things. A hardware setup tweak mad scientist. More power to you. :)

PS, here's an ingenious engineering design tip from me to whomever. Wtf is this trend with giving laptop's shiny finishes!? The very frigging purpose of these things necessitate they be constantly handled and touched! Shiny finish? Five mins of use and someone has a smuggy looking oily smeared mess! Gawd dammit people doing this design tardation ... flat black matte! Do you hear me dammit! :P Well do ya, ya feckers doing this! Dell's suffer from this, that dearly departed Hp did too. The whole thing was high gloss shine, inside and out. It's bothering me now to a point I'm considering finding an appropriate sticky film material and having to measure, cut out and apply a finish that'll actually work. What, am I supposed to start carrying around a buffer for the damn things!? Ten mins of use, 15 spent buffing out all the smears and smudges!?
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Re: Have people gone crazy with specs?

Postby Deb-fan » 2020-02-23 04:40

This junk really ain't funny somebody should do a study on time/economic impact. Probably end up finding peeps spend 400,856,467.63hrs per year cleaning these things. Am not even ocd about this type of thing, the opposite, I'm generally a slob. Like a degree of order and general sanitation though. Which is why this is on mind. Looked down one day thought WTH, laptop is crusty, errr is that something growing on that area of da keyboard? :P Thus began a protracted cleaning of the thing. Ended up shiny as all get out and now I notice and have been somewhat trying to keep up with it. Which is fundamentally impossible and thus annoying. Sheesh with that Hp someone had to wear sunglasses to look at/use it after just taking it out of box but it's all downhill from there. So oem's yep, there's a tip, your customers take these things out of box one time. Then they actually have to look at the dam things and probably don't want them appearing a crusty smudge ridden mess, kay? :)

PS, and the people behind mobile autocorrect should just be taken out and shot. I hate you people with a burning passion at this point which borders on insanity, lol. Why did you do this to da world!? Why inflict this thing on others!? WHYYYYYYY!? :P Yep can see a lightbulb going off over some evil bastids head. I GOT IT, these tiny touch keyboards just aren't already painful enough to use. I've discovered the perfect solution to making em excruciating! Introducing autocorrect! SUCCESS!

DIE, SIMPLY DO THE RIGHT THING AND DIE, PLEASE JUST DIE!
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Re: Have people gone crazy with specs?

Postby NFT5 » 2020-02-23 09:49

CwF wrote:Maybe a Cruz?


Nah, Pajero. 4M41 engine with Aisin auto and bulletproof Mitsubishi diffs. Dual chipped with a dedicated notebook for programming the chips. IBM R40 with failing graphics but has the serial port needed for the interface. Next project will be to find a replacement for it. Where do you find something with the grunt to run XP, a PCMCIA wi-fi card and a serial port? Not a bad run out of the old beast, though. My missus has her favourite Asus that has a serial port. "But dear, I need it for the car"............................. :roll:

Automobiles, tools, computers. They're all just instruments to achieve an end. I learned a long time ago that if you start with quality you're much less likely to experience failure. Failures cost time and time is money. There is actually sound reasoning behind overspeccing components.

CwF wrote:50+mpg here I come!


stevepusser wrote:most people don't need to waste a hundred times as much energy and money driving around alone in a massive SUV


Maybe better. Taking it easy, at 90-100km/h, I'm getting 6l/100km. That's 45mpg. Efficiency is the key. Just like my desktop - I don't use all 8 cores all the time, but they're there for when I do.

Deb-fan wrote:Probably end up finding peeps spend 400,856,467.63hrs per year cleaning these things.


I have one PC which has a dedicated function - to run a proprietary program for mixing paint colours. The keyboard sits in a drawer under the bench where paint is mixed. Of course, nobody ever shuts the drawer so this poor keyboard gets splashed with paint and thinners and constantly has little crusty bits dropped in/on it. Occasionally it gets pulled out and turned upside down while being bashed on the benchtop, to clear the dried up bits of paint that sometimes jam the keys. Nobody has ever thought to clean it - waste of time, really. Been there for over 10 years. It's a Dell. Industrial strength. Only the old IBM keyboards came close to taking that kind of punishment.

Auto correct is permanently off on any device I use. Seriously, I have enough trouble with spellcheckers. What I want is a spell and grammar checker that works on other people's posts.

Edit: I just switched to my other forum and the first post I read was this:
awesome work, mate love the build the thread braver then me I just palm if off to a shop to do


Surely AI has reached a point where it could have saved me the pain of reading and trying to understand rubbish like this.
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Re: Have people gone crazy with specs?

Postby Deb-fan » 2020-02-23 10:15

^LfrigAo. :)

Forgot to mention your car sounds badarse (0-100mph in 7s, yikes). What do you use that can handle that kind of torque, titanium, some secret space age polymer you just aren't sharing yet? Need a wheely bar on the thing? :P Luv it, yeah am sure commandeering your lady's PC will go over great!

Think back when Dell bought their components in bulk and just assembled them they are/were dang kickbutt. This ancient laptop is a tank. Now that they've done the logical thing and cut out the middlemen branding their own components hope they've kept up on quality. Think a lot of manufacturer's actually hire people to design stuff to break after whatever they've deemed is an acceptable lifespan. Oops transmission's gone, time to buy a new one.

An old PC in the setting you use it for, who cares, only needs be durable but for consumer electronics can't help consider it an epic fail. Still don't so much care, as long as it's really durable bottom line. Still ... nobody at Dell design central stopped and considered this ? Hey guys used one of our new xyz model a bit to try the thing out, worked great but errrr time I was done that high gloss finish we use looked about as appealing as if somebody took a dump on a mirror.

For about a week after was keeping a cloth next to the thing and wiping it down. Then came back to my senses and said screw it, why care. Still though there aren't enough problems and stupidity in the world, somebody at Dell had to custom design some into a brand of laptop I favor, for real? :) Just add insult to annoyance this model deviates from norm, doesn't have the shiny lid. It's a more appropriate finish, like hey they want it to look decent if someone walks by and it's sitting there. Open the lid, looks like a 4 year old has been finger painting with grease smudges on the thing.
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Re: Have people gone crazy with specs?

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2020-02-23 11:50

A quick comment from me before this thread gets locked...

For motorcycles excessive power is actually a safety feature — it allows for easier, safer overtakes and gives the rider the opportunity to escape from other road users who are trying to ram them (this has happened to me more than once but I'm even ruder on the road than I am here).

Bikers have a saying:
The smaller the bike the bigger the injury

The EU has for many years tried to prove a link between motorcycle power and accident rates to justify draconian limits (such as are imposed in France) but they've failed miserably because if a link does exist then it is the inverse.

[/off-topic]
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