The only answer you need...

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Re: The only answer you need...

Postby LE_746F6D617A7A69 » 2020-10-06 21:21

sunrat wrote:Is it possible or too late to fork a non-MS Linux kernel? Or is BSD going to be the popular FOSS choice for those who care in the future?
Technically, this is possible - but I doubt that any distro would dare to "take a lead" of kernel development ...
BSD kernels have a probem with SMP performance - it will take years for them to catch the Linux kernel in that aspect ...

Unfortunately I don't have a good answer...
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Re: The only answer you need...

Postby stevepusser » 2020-10-07 03:37

The kernel configuration is really flexible. Can't any "features" you don't want just not be enabled?
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Re: The only answer you need...

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2020-10-07 19:41

LE_746F6D617A7A69 wrote:BSD kernels have a probem with SMP performance

DragonFly BSD fares pretty well for SMP support (although it's still not as good as Linux in that respect): https://www.dragonflybsd.org/performance/

And anyway performance isn't everything :)
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Re: The only answer you need...

Postby LE_746F6D617A7A69 » 2020-10-07 20:23

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
LE_746F6D617A7A69 wrote:BSD kernels have a probem with SMP performance

DragonFly BSD fares pretty well for SMP support (although it's still not as good as Linux in that respect): https://www.dragonflybsd.org/performance/

And anyway performance isn't everything :)

I disagree - the performance is the key factor - it defines the MIPS per Watt factor (thus the energy consumption/savings), but what is probably more important - the performance of SMP-dependant applications, which are becoming ubiquitous nowadays.

Perfect SMP scaling means the lowest possible energy/shortest time needed to perform an SMP tasks - and AFAIN BSD kernels can't assure that correlated (bound to a single process) SMP context switching will happen in a very short or nearly zero-time time window - that's the main problem (but I think that BSD developers could port the solutions used in Linux kernel - they are relatively simple).

I think that Linux kernel development slowly but inevitably changes the direction from a "robust code" to a "corporate code" - where the only counting aspects are the version numbers and the number of patches... (Quality Assurance is too expensive ...)

I'm seriously considering Haiku and BSD kernels a the future of Free, High Quality kernels, because those projects are not polluted by the corporate code monkeys and their shitty code ...

Hurd is not an option as for now, because f.e. it lacks a support for commonly used filesystems, and additionally I don't think that it will be able to become a serious alternative to Linux kernel without having an option to use proprietary firmware...

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Re: The only answer you need...

Postby sickpig » 2020-10-07 20:33

GNU Guix can be an option as it uses libre kernel which I believe does not include proprietary bits in it.
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Re: The only answer you need...

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2020-10-08 18:40

LE_746F6D617A7A69 wrote:Perfect SMP scaling means the lowest possible energy/shortest time needed to perform an SMP tasks

I spend my entire working day burning fossil fuel so I couldn't care less about energy usage and I would rather that the code be correct than fast. I use OpenBSD for internet banking :)

sickpig wrote:GNU Guix can be an option as it uses libre kernel which I believe does not include proprietary bits in it.

Debian's kernel is already de-blobbed, no need for the "libre" version (which will refuse to load the firmware that your wireless card almost certainly needs).
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Re: The only answer you need...

Postby sickpig » 2020-10-08 18:53

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:I use OpenBSD for internet banking

I thought about trying *BSDs but as of now am heavily invested in systemd. May be some other time.
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Re: The only answer you need...

Postby LE_746F6D617A7A69 » 2020-10-08 19:48

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:I spend my entire working day burning fossil fuel so I couldn't care less about energy usage (...)
:lol:
That's a "strange" argument, and I suppose that Greenpeace people wouldn't be very happy reading this ... :mrgreen:
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Re: The only answer you need...

Postby pylkko » 2020-10-10 11:42

To what extent energy efficiency is relevant may depend on the background where the issue emerges quite a lot. Electricity is really cheap, well at least we can probably say that when you are paying like 10-20 euro cent for a kilowatt hour (this is what I presume the price to be in the western world although it does vary), then such changes in energy efficiency will mean monetary savings of maybe less than one cent in a year or something. But, of course, if we are running on a battery it might have more tangible real life effects. Not to mention planetary ecological effects when millions of machines are running it.

We have had multiple threads over the years on here about alternatives to linux for installing on home computers. Unfortunately, in my experience, it always turns out that the other alternatives are quite lacking, nearly always have poorer performance and very patchy hardware support. I installed Haiku on an old 32-bit laptop (x86) at work last year. Of course the network card didn't work, but other than that all else did. Probably has a bunch of other missing features that I didn't notice yet.
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Re: The only answer you need...

Postby Deb-fan » 2020-10-10 12:19

Some interesting stuff guys ... cool thoughts.

Not meant as any kind of holier + thou thing but the degree of wastage I see in so many things, every single dy kind of sickens me a bit. It's everywhere, all things, at all times and is really sad and imo very stupid. If you have one thoughtless, selfish person, okay, still not good but okay. Add up BILLIONS of such people, conducting themselves in such a way dy in, dy out, the negative impact it has combined is horrid. When there's not a fish left in the sea or a leaf on a gdamn tree yanno ? There certainly are good people trying to make efforts and counter-act the damage done too.

Feel like I'm ragging on Head_on and I'm not, the guy is clearly a highly intelligent person and very competent techie. Still an observation, if the code is correct that should mean it's also very fast and efficient. My thoughts on BSD's and other such OS options. Just due to basic facts, number of users, code contributors, more and more interest in official support from OEM's and others, none of them will ever hold a candle to Nix. The only people who care about those outskirt OS's are the 10,000 or whatever real-life small number of people world-wide who use them. Not saying they're wrong either, clearly they're not, it's their right n choice but realistically they'll never touch Nix. That's just the bottom-line, painfully obvious fact in my view anyway.

Nothing wrong with the I prefer using xyz-BSD because it makes me feel better and I have xyz-reasons to believe it's fundamentally more secure etc. Gotta say imo, that's paranoid nonsense, while no doubt a factual basis to that in ways. I kind of get what Head_on means when talking about cleaner code, virtue of a lesser code base etc and do actually agree and appreciate the outlook for real. Getting back to sec, sec, blahblah, people do financial and other likewise sensitive transactions by the 10's of millions every single dy using lesser OS's aka: Windows and do so w/o major issues resulting overwhelming majority of time. An OS, ANY OS, is mostly only as good as the person using it, makes it. Plenty of BSD'ers have no doubt gotten Pawnd too ...

Arghhh shutting it, no offense was meant to anybody, only making comments in a Debian/tech forum fellas. Had too much coffee, not enough sleep again. :)
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Re: The only answer you need...

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2020-10-10 14:07

LE_746F6D617A7A69 wrote:Hurd is not an option as for now

Interesting blog post from one of the Hurd developers about replacing Mach with seL4: https://nalaginrut.com/archives/2019/12 ... 20thoughts

As with any microkernel hardware support is left to user space so all it needs is for somebody to write the software :-)

pylkko wrote:To what extent energy efficiency is relevant may depend on the background where the issue emerges quite a lot

^ This.

In my country (the UK) there is at least one energy company that only sources from carbon-zero renewable supplies so energy usage becomes purely a matter of financial cost.
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Re: The only answer you need...

Postby LE_746F6D617A7A69 » 2020-10-10 14:53

pylkko wrote:Not to mention planetary ecological effects when millions of machines are running it.
Not millions (10^6), but billions (10^9). Assuming that each machine wastes only 1 Watt per hour due to running poorly optimized programs (which is a very optimistic assumption) gives few Giga Watts per hour globally - every single hour.

But on the other hand, I suppose that much more energy is wasted by spying and data collecting software installed by Google, Apple, Microshit, Shitsung, LG, SONY, Huawei, etc. on that billions of devices.
Few tens of millions of devices running Free and Open GNU/Linux distros won't save the world...

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:In my country (the UK) there is at least one energy company that only sources from carbon-zero renewable supplies so energy usage becomes purely a matter of financial cost.
The problem is that 99% of energy still comes from non-renewable sources - and it will take decades before we will reach something like 10-20% globally. Unless, what is also quite possible, we'll never reach that point - because our civilization will get smashed by 3rd World War caused by climate changes, which will in turn cause a total crisis in global economy.
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Re: The only answer you need...

Postby pylkko » 2020-10-12 18:27

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
LE_746F6D617A7A69 wrote:Hurd is not an option as for now

Interesting blog post from one of the Hurd developers about replacing Mach with seL4: https://nalaginrut.com/archives/2019/12 ... 20thoughts


Thanks for sharing that. People have talked for years about the antiquated (in some sense) design vs L4. But more interestingly, how possible is it to design an operating system without corporate influence/input at all? Especially after linux. Before linux existed, before GNU and gcc and all that there was nothing on the table, so the rewards were high. But now that linux works so well and is so easy to deploy/install, there is less incentive. People that have the know how to compile simple code, or script with Python or whatever probably are not going to be getting into microkernel or driver writing so easily. He rightly points out that FOSS projects benefit largley from people that hhave no formal education in CS. However, it's now worse, because I suspect that even most CS students don't go into kernel design as the industry is largely now javascipt/cloud or app stuff. So is there any hope? There are some project that try to do it like, Redox OS, minix is still going forward, but it is slow and very abstract/theoretical. Will there ever be a day when you can install Redox on real hardware and do something real with it? I realize that this is not a new idea, this is the critique that Linus put to GNU about the hurd/mach, but it seems that today there is even more need for projects that actually really do something (as opposed to theoretically solving some issue) and at the same time less people that have the know how and interest.
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Re: The only answer you need...

Postby kedaha » 2020-10-12 18:59

neuraleskimo wrote:...42.

If that doesn't work, reboot and install Windows.

No. If that doesn't work, reboot and install Debian.
neuraleskimo wrote: Then your problems won't seem so bad. Plus, always remember that in some parallel universe your hardware is supported and you have Debian running perfectly! ;-)

In my parallel universe my hardware is supported and I have Debian running perfectly.
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Re: The only answer you need...

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2020-10-13 16:38

pylkko wrote:how possible is it to design an operating system without corporate influence/input at all?

Have you tried OpenBSD? They accept corporate donations but the developers very much do their own thing (check out the mailing lists, they're epic) and the operating system is absolutely brilliant, a model of simplicity and the King of "just works".
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