Even Linus thinks Debian is hard to install

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Bro.Tiag · #46 Post by **Bro.Tiag** » 2007-07-21 13:21

DeanLinkous wrote:
Bro.Tiag wrote: I find it odd he is not running GNU? After all, he is all 'bout free & GNU has got to be freer then gNewSense.
So Teague, if RMS absolutely needed to check his email at a airport or bus station and the only system available was MSwindows - do you think he would use mswindows?

I do not know, you are the principled man then I, what do you say?

DeanLinkous · #47 Post by **DeanLinkous** » 2007-07-21 14:33

Bro.Tiag wrote: I do not know, you are the principled man then I, what do you say?

Since you seem to consider RMS to be lacking in a practical sense when it comes to free software, I thought that would of been a easy question. I am simply asking what YOU think he would do...

Vergil · #48 Post by **Vergil** » 2007-07-21 15:10

Bro.Tiag wrote:
perlhacker14 wrote:
Vergil wrote: I think he now uses gNewSense
http://www.stallman.org/stallman-computing.html
I stand corrected; He used to use Debian on his laptops, then moved to some GNU/LinEx or whatever and now this gNewSense...
I find it odd he is not running GNU? After all, he is all 'bout free & GNU has got to be freer then gNewSense.

Well, I don't think Hurd is quite ready for full time use.

Bro.Tiag · #49 Post by **Bro.Tiag** » 2007-07-21 15:17

DeanLinkous wrote:
Bro.Tiag wrote: I do not know, you are the principled man then I, what do you say?
Since you seem to consider RMS to be lacking in a practical sense when it comes to free software, I thought that would of been a easy question. I am simply asking what YOU think he would do...

AH, go on Dean. I never said such regarding RMS. One would just think that since he is the Gnu guru that he would at least be running his own operating system, no? I mean if a novice as my self can be posting a reply to you from my GNU install surly he would be able to check his e-mail on his laptop from a bus stop or airport.

Cheers

Bro.Tiag · #50 Post by **Bro.Tiag** » 2007-07-21 15:38

Vergil wrote:
Bro.Tiag wrote:I find it odd he is not running GNU? After all, he is all 'bout free & GNU has got to be freer then gNewSense.
Well, I don't think Hurd is quite ready for full time use.

I guess that somewhat depends on what one wants to use it for. I can surf the web with it, which is I guess most of what I do with my computer. I also spend quit a bit of time just mucking with my install of it, mostly testing stuff, trying to install stuff & build stuff. I figure once I get e17 built & a decent web-browser built I will see 'bout making some deb packages of it. For not, I do find it fun to work on.

Cheers

llivv · #51 Post by **llivv** » 2007-07-21 15:44

DeanLinkous · #52 Post by **DeanLinkous** » 2007-07-21 15:49

Bro.Tiag wrote: I guess that somewhat depends on what one wants to use it for.

Hows the sound system?

Bro.Tiag · #53 Post by **Bro.Tiag** » 2007-07-21 16:01

DeanLinkous wrote:Hows the sound system?

What sound system?

DeanLinkous · #54 Post by **DeanLinkous** » 2007-07-21 16:20

Bro.Tiag wrote:
DeanLinkous wrote:
Bro.Tiag wrote: I do not know, you are the principled man then I, what do you say?
Since you seem to consider RMS to be lacking in a practical sense when it comes to free software, I thought that would of been a easy question. I am simply asking what YOU think he would do...
AH, go on Dean. I never said such regarding RMS. One would just think that since he is the Gnu guru that he would at least be running his own operating system, no? I mean if a novice as my self can be posting a reply to you from my GNU install surly he would be able to check his e-mail on his laptop from a bus stop or airport.

Cheers

AH, go on Teague. I didnt say that you said, I said you seemed to consider.....

What the hell is a GNU guru anyway?

He also uses emacs but if he was on a system with only vi, why wouldnt he use it?

The man is practical and as such he would not run GNU/Hurd the same as he said he would not run Ututo when he first tried it. It isn't usable, it isn't useful, it isn't complete. It isn't a good system.

The hurd isnt his operating system no more or less than linux is his operating system.

Linux isn't any less free software, in that I have the four freedoms with it. Linux is less-free than it could be because it contains blobs. But I still have the freedom to remove those blobs so it is still free software.

Free software is the long term goal, something people strive for - not something we have to be perfect about this instant - but we have to truly strive for it and put in the effort to reach the goal or else we aren't really trying just making excuses.

Free software was (and in some cases still is) created on non-free systems. So it isn't always about what you are using but why you are using it and how using it furthers the goal.

It isn't about two sides of a battle and one killing off the other, it is about having a choice, both sides being present and people having a real choice to choose. Free software is about making sure that the choice is different - since it wouldnt be much of a choice otherwise. If we turn free software into the same patents/deals/business as non-free then it isn't really any different is it?

DeanLinkous · #55 Post by **DeanLinkous** » 2007-07-21 16:22

Bro.Tiag wrote:
DeanLinkous wrote:Hows the sound system?
What sound system?

The GNU Hurd sound system? RMS has to be able to listen to stuff....
Sounds is a important part of a computer IMO.

Chapter 6 · #56 Post by **Chapter 6** » 2007-07-21 16:40

DeanLinkous wrote:
Bro.Tiag wrote: I find it odd he is not running GNU? After all, he is all 'bout free & GNU has got to be freer then gNewSense.
So Teague, if RMS absolutely needed to check his email at a airport or bus station and the only system available was MSwindows - do you think he would use mswindows?

Somehow I get the impression that Mr. Stallman never has to check his email at any particular time. I get the impression that he is a man that allows nothing to come between him and his principles. He is a man of strong conviction -- world be damned. It's his way or the highway.

perlhacker14 · #57 Post by **perlhacker14** » 2007-07-21 17:02

DeanLinkous wrote:
Bro.Tiag wrote:
DeanLinkous wrote:Hows the sound system?
What sound system?
The GNU Hurd sound system? RMS has to be able to listen to stuff....
Sounds is a important part of a computer IMO.

It seems that RMS would have more pressing concerns then listening to stuff... maybe updating that hyper political website of his and writing his next speech? Or working on some new software for GNU?

Just curious, is Hurd even usable with Debian?

Bro.Tiag · #58 Post by **Bro.Tiag** » 2007-07-21 17:03

DeanLinkous wrote:AH, go on Teague. I didnt say that you said, I said you seemed to consider.....

Man Dean, and I was not even trying to wind you up.

DeanLinkous wrote:
Bro.Tiag wrote:
DeanLinkous wrote:Hows the sound system?
What sound system?
The GNU Hurd sound system? RMS has to be able to listen to stuff....
Sounds is a important part of a computer IMO.

The right tool for the right job, I have a very nice Hi-fi Stereo for all the sound I need (as well as my neighbours ).

DeanLinkous · #59 Post by **DeanLinkous** » 2007-07-21 17:08

Bro.Tiag wrote: Man Dean, and I was not even trying to wind you up.

Then you suceeded in not winding me up. Just wanted to make sure you didnt say that I said something when I didn't, the same as you....

Bro.Tiag wrote: The right tool for the right job, I have a very nice Hi-fi Stereo for all the sound I need (as well as my neighbours ).

Thats YOU. Certainly you can agree that most people would demand at least some sort of sound system to consider something usable? That is what we was discussing, the HURD as a usable system....

I noticed you didnt comment much on my other post....are you sure you aren't just wanting to wind someone up?

DeanLinkous · #60 Post by **DeanLinkous** » 2007-07-21 17:11

perlhacker14 wrote: It seems that RMS would have more pressing concerns then listening to stuff... maybe updating that hyper political website of his and writing his next speech? Or working on some new software for GNU?

Just curious, is Hurd even usable with Debian?

I dont think RMS is nearly as one track as you seem to think he is...

Are you aware that he is fond of folk dancing?

I don't think he codes much at all anymore.

perlhacker14 · #61 Post by **perlhacker14** » 2007-07-21 17:15

DeanLinkous wrote:
perlhacker14 wrote: It seems that RMS would have more pressing concerns then listening to stuff... maybe updating that hyper political website of his and writing his next speech? Or working on some new software for GNU?

Just curious, is Hurd even usable with Debian?
I dont think RMS is nearly as one track as you seem to think he is...

Are you aware that he is fond of folk dancing?

I don't think he codes much at all anymore.

I am quite aware of his oddities; On his webpage he had some wack story about nasal sex with plants at a restaurant...
And he began a lecture with a folk dance once.

Yes... I read on /. that the once great leaders and coders are falling to checking code and approving features now, rather than working on code.

DeanLinkous · #62 Post by **DeanLinkous** » 2007-07-21 17:32

I bet he doesnt even use a phone since the network is run with non-free software. I bet he doesn't flush a toilet because the waste management system uses non-free software. I bet he would never use a hospital since a lot of the devices have non-free code.

He should just use GNU (hurd) on everything....and do without everything else.

Chapter 6 · #63 Post by **Chapter 6** » 2007-07-21 17:37

DeanLinkous wrote:I bet he doesnt even use a phone since the network is run with non-free software. I bet he doesn't flush a toilet because the waste management system uses non-free software. I bet he would never use a hospital since a lot of the devices have non-free code.

The man is eccentric. Not insane. To paraphrase a line from the movie Forest Gump: That boy is different.

Here's a quote from Richard Stallman's personal page:

"Those who profess to favor freedom, yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters. This struggle may be a moral one; or it may be a physical one; or it may be both moral and physical; but it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will."

-- Frederick Douglass, American Abolitionist, Letter to an associate, 1849

DeanLinkous · #64 Post by **DeanLinkous** » 2007-07-21 18:05

Love the quote....
I dont even think he is eccentric.

I was just ranting away because I fear that one person here cannot manage to figure out that free software isn't a absolute 'everything free right now' but at the same time it is not 'only when convenient' either.

I find it funny that a company (that is trying to get your money) can say "this is the right way" and people believe them. Whereas if RMS says "this is the right way" he is dismissed as a nut.

Chapter 6 · #65 Post by **Chapter 6** » 2007-07-21 18:45

DeanLinkous wrote:Love the quote....
I dont even think he is eccentric.

I was just ranting away because I fear that one person here cannot manage to figure out that free software isn't a absolute 'everything free right now' but at the same time it is not 'only when convenient' either.

I find it funny that a company (that is trying to get your money) can say "this is the right way" and people believe them. Whereas if RMS says "this is the right way" he is dismissed as a nut.

I think it's because we live in a commercialized society where we are conditioned to expect to be cheated. Everyone cheats us -- our governments, our churches, business, and even sometimes friends and family. We've been conditioned to expect nothing for nothing. We've learned that what is ours must be protected, for there is always someone wanting to take what we have away. So it seems rather odd when you find people that just want to give things away. It's a culture shock when you see people that give of themselves without asking for much of anything in return.

I think the idea of sharing is really quite foreign to most people. Particularly in western civilization. We've all been more or less assimilated into a society where greed is good, and only guilty or crazy people give; everyone else takes.

Right or wrong, it took generations to get to this stage. It will take generations still for mankind to evolve beyond the current status quo.