Even Linus thinks Debian is hard to install

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Re: Even Linus thinks Debian is hard to install

Postby perlhacker14 » 2007-07-17 23:37

mzilikazi wrote:
Chapter 6 wrote:Does anyone actually read words literally anymore?

Is Linus so busy that he cannot take the time to become at least slightly familiar with the subject at hand before forming an opinion or does he always let someone else form his opinions for him?

Linus Torvalds wrote:So the only major distribution I’ve never used has actually been Debian


This says to me in a literal sense that Linus has never even used Debian and yet he has the audacity to say that the installer is not simple. From where does he get his information? Perhaps you agree w/ Linus that Debian is difficult to install?

I have never told anyone that Debian is not for beginners. Anytime I convert a Windows user to Linux it's not Ubuntu or Mandriva or PCLinuxOS - it's Debian. My son uses and can install Etch by himself. Additionally he has root on his own box and does his own upgrades. If a 9 year old can do it then kernel genius Linus can.

I regard Torvlds' opinion of Debian in the same light as I do those of my aquaintances, family, co-workers and so on who all say "Linux is too hard" and yet not one of them has ever used Linux......

Exactly worthless.


That's one smart Nine year old... When I was nine all I did was write clever batch files on win3.1 and make a mess. ;)

I regard those who make unknowledged claims as total hypocrites, as they have no idea what they are saying. Torvalds claims that the whole concept of a distro is that is is easy to install and manage. What can you use besides a distro? A kernel on its own gets you nowhere, as he has said earlier, so claiming that distros are meant to be simple is false; as I remember from an article, distros were created to provide functionality and features.
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Postby benuski » 2007-07-18 00:46

DeanLinkous wrote:
mzilikazi wrote:GNU/kFreeBSD anyone?

Yep, got it right here. Still trying to decide if it is that or possibly opensolaris in hopes it goes v3. Nice to see I am not the only one....


Speaking of which... Has anybody out here tried NexentaOS? Its based on the Solaris kernel based on the Debian userland. The interesting thing is that, while they are not part of the Debian Project now, they want to get "upstream acceptance." I'm downloading it right now, gonna see what its like.
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Postby DeanLinkous » 2007-07-18 02:21

benuski wrote:Speaking of which... Has anybody out here tried NexentaOS?


AFAIK nexenta is having some "growing pains" and I am unsure of the future outlook of the distro. Right now, I think they are sort of 'starting over' and that doesn't impress me too much. Overall, I am just not comfortable with nexenta. But please post back and tell us about it......

If I was going to do opensolaris I would probably do Belenix.
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Re: Even Linus thinks Debian is hard to install

Postby Jackiebrown » 2007-07-18 02:47

Chapter 6 wrote:Personally I'm surprised by some of the hypocrisy in this thread.

You should add that as you sig.

On the topic at hand, it is strange that someone who created and maintains the linux kernel opts for the easiest distro.

Makes you wish he would make it easier to read the kernel source :wink:
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Postby Chapter 6 » 2007-07-18 03:42

actionM wrote:Chapter 6, you love Torvalds and you want to have his baby!


I actually know very little about the guy. I just think that a lot of people attack him for what they think he's saying, and not what he is actually saying. Dealing with people that want to twist every word you say can be very frustrating.
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Postby llivv » 2007-07-18 08:47

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Postby Velvet Elvis » 2007-07-18 15:46

Now back to the source, does the theme of the web site remind anyone of anything?


A bad prefabricated CMS template?
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Re: Even Linus thinks Debian is hard to install

Postby Chapter 6 » 2007-07-18 19:36

mzilikazi wrote:
Linus Torvalds wrote:So the only major distribution I’ve never used has actually been Debian


This says to me in a literal sense that Linus has never even used Debian and yet he has the audacity to say that the installer is not simple. From where does he get his information? Perhaps you agree w/ Linus that Debian is difficult to install?


Where does Linus get his information? Probably from the people that DO use Debian. When you consider that the man created the Linux kernel and is still heavily involved with the Linux community, it stands to reason that he is in contact with a lot of other Linux users and developers.

Just read the threads on this forum. There are a lot of Debian users here who do not recommend Debian for new users or folks that are looking for an "easy" Linux distro. So I'd say that Linus probably gets most of his information about Debian from people that actually use Debian.

Things may be different in the Debian community now, but Linus didn't say that Debian IS a difficult distro to install. He merely said that it has "traditionally" been a difficult distro to install. And like it or not, he is absolutely right.

Personally, I started with Debian. I didn't think that it was a difficult distro to install, but I had no experience with other distros. So I had nothing to really compare my Debian experience with.

I have since tried Ubuntu, and there is no question that Ubuntu is much easier to install than Debian is. Even now.
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Re: Even Linus thinks Debian is hard to install

Postby perlhacker14 » 2007-07-18 19:54

Chapter 6 wrote:Where does Linus get his information? Probably from the people that DO use Debian. When you consider that the man created the Linux kernel and is still heavily involved with the Linux community, it stands to reason that he is in contact with a lot of other Linux users and developers.

Just read the threads on this forum. There are a lot of Debian users here who do not recommend Debian for new users or folks that are looking for an "easy" Linux distro. So I'd say that Linus probably gets most of his information about Debian from people that actually use Debian.

Things may be different in the Debian community now, but Linus didn't say that Debian IS a difficult distro to install. He merely said that it has "traditionally" been a difficult distro to install. And like it or not, he is absolutely right.

Personally, I started with Debian. I didn't think that it was a difficult distro to install, but I had no experience with other distros. So I had nothing to really compare my Debian experience with.

I have since tried Ubuntu, and there is no question that Ubuntu is much easier to install than Debian is. Even now.


Traditionally Difficult? Debian was never difficult to install, even back when I put Debian Potato on a friends machine.
Ubuntu was made to be easy; what were you expecting?
Yes, Debian is not for the incompetent newbie who wants everything done and set out for him; it is for those who want choice and the capability to customize, whether the person is new or experienced.
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Re: Even Linus thinks Debian is hard to install

Postby Chapter 6 » 2007-07-18 20:24

perlhacker14 wrote:
Chapter 6 wrote:Where does Linus get his information? Probably from the people that DO use Debian. When you consider that the man created the Linux kernel and is still heavily involved with the Linux community, it stands to reason that he is in contact with a lot of other Linux users and developers.

Just read the threads on this forum. There are a lot of Debian users here who do not recommend Debian for new users or folks that are looking for an "easy" Linux distro. So I'd say that Linus probably gets most of his information about Debian from people that actually use Debian.

Things may be different in the Debian community now, but Linus didn't say that Debian IS a difficult distro to install. He merely said that it has "traditionally" been a difficult distro to install. And like it or not, he is absolutely right.

Personally, I started with Debian. I didn't think that it was a difficult distro to install, but I had no experience with other distros. So I had nothing to really compare my Debian experience with.

I have since tried Ubuntu, and there is no question that Ubuntu is much easier to install than Debian is. Even now.


Traditionally Difficult? Debian was never difficult to install, even back when I put Debian Potato on a friends machine.
Ubuntu was made to be easy; what were you expecting?
Yes, Debian is not for the incompetent newbie who wants everything done and set out for him; it is for those who want choice and the capability to customize, whether the person is new or experienced.


What was I expecting? I wasn't expecting anything. No one is disputing the fact that Debian is relatively easy to install. The issue is whether it is easier to install than other distros. And Debian is not easier to install than some other distros. It never has been.

Debian is becoming AS EASY to install as some of the other distros. But it has never been the easiest distro to install.
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Re: Even Linus thinks Debian is hard to install

Postby perlhacker14 » 2007-07-18 21:18

Chapter 6 wrote:What was I expecting? I wasn't expecting anything. No one is disputing the fact that Debian is relatively easy to install. The issue is whether it is easier to install than other distros. And Debian is not easier to install than some other distros. It never has been.

Debian is becoming AS EASY to install as some of the other distros. But it has never been the easiest distro to install.


It is easier to install than some distros: Gentoo (compile / bootstrap the base system); Arch (just annoying and a pain in the arse to set up right); Slackware (can go horribly wrong, but otherwise fine).

I am not saying that it is the easiest, but it was never hard or harder than most others. I would rate Debian and Red Hat on the same level as installation easiness goes.

With the new GUI installer and simplification, I would have to concede that Debian is becoming simpler to install.
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Postby Lavene » 2007-07-19 05:23

So what if Linus has never used Debian? Why should anyone care? As he says the only thing he cares about is to get an environment where he can work on the kernel. Any distro will provide him with that. And that Debian has a reputation of being hard to install is undeniable and he just hasn't cared to find out if that's true or not.

What amazes about Linus is that he still bother to give interviews since no matter what he says someone will flame him for it. And for some reason people get really offended when he has a negative opinion on something. I can't for the life of me understand why... I mean, the only thing that makes him special is that he created the Linux kernel. I couldn't care less if he doesn't like the distro I use, the desktop, the editor...

Debian hard to install? Well, for some it is. I remember having one hell of a time installing woody on my laptop. Of course even then a bunch of people told me that it was easy. It's all subjective. Hell, go to a Gentoo forum and say that Gentoo is a PITA to install and you're likely to get told off in pretty much the same way as people are told off here.

One thing is for sure: If someone feels that something is difficult it does not matter if a thousand people yell "Hell no, it's easy!"

So if Linus don't want to try Debian he don't want to try Debian. Don't loose any sleep over it.

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Postby Chapter 6 » 2007-07-19 07:25

Lavene wrote:So what if Linus has never used Debian? Why should anyone care? As he says the only thing he cares about is to get an environment where he can work on the kernel. Any distro will provide him with that. And that Debian has a reputation of being hard to install is undeniable and he just hasn't cared to find out if that's true or not.


:D

Lavene wrote:What amazes about Linus is that he still bother to give interviews since no matter what he says someone will flame him for it. And for some reason people get really offended when he has a negative opinion on something. I can't for the life of me understand why... I mean, the only thing that makes him special is that he created the Linux kernel. I couldn't care less if he doesn't like the distro I use, the desktop, the editor...


Not only that, but people flame him for what he didn't actually say. Then they accuse him of belligerence when he gets frustrated with people who just aren't listening to what he is saying.

Linus could say that he ate a juicy red tomato, and people would accuse him of slamming green tomatoes.

Lavene wrote:Debian hard to install? Well, for some it is. I remember having one hell of a time installing woody on my laptop. Of course even then a bunch of people told me that it was easy. It's all subjective. Hell, go to a Gentoo forum and say that Gentoo is a PITA to install and you're likely to get told off in pretty much the same way as people are told off here.


I found Debian to be a pain in the ass to install on some old world powermacs. On x86 hardware, I found Debian to be a breeze to install. I also found a net install of Debian on MIPS hardware to be a breeze as well.

Lavene wrote:One thing is for sure: If someone feels that something is difficult it does not matter if a thousand people yell "Hell no, it's easy!"


:D

Lavene wrote:So if Linus don't want to try Debian he don't want to try Debian. Don't loose any sleep over it.


I've been finding it really easy over the last couple of years to think of women as being stupid. It's good to see that there are intelligent women on the planet. :D
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Postby llivv » 2007-07-19 13:20

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Postby Chapter 6 » 2007-07-19 17:37

llivv wrote:
Chapter 6 wrote: It's good to see that there are intelligent women on the planet. :D

I also believe in this as well. It rare to find compatible people nearer than 1 or 2 countries away. I think this is some kind of "unwritten rule/ cruel joke" perpetrated by the system. 8)


I didn't say 'compatible', I said 'intelligent'. I'm not Linus Torvalds, you can take my words literally.
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You have always told me you'd not live past 25
I say stay long enough to repay all who cause strife."

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