Even Linus thinks Debian is hard to install

If it doesn't relate to Debian, but you still want to share it, please do it here

Postby Telemachus » 2007-08-05 02:46

BioTube wrote:One thing the kernel needs is a coherent changelog.

It's not in the kernel itself, but I find this useful: http://kernelnewbies.org/LinuxChanges
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Postby BioTube » 2007-08-05 03:04

That's much better than the notes kernel.org has.
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Linus

Postby michaelwr » 2007-08-06 02:37

swirling_vortex wrote:
A curiosity: which is your favourite distribution, and which on e do you consider more secure?

Linux Torvalds wrote: I don’t really tend to care much, I’ve changed distributions over the years, and to me the most important thing tends to be that they are easy to install and upgrade, and allow me to do the only part I really care about - the kernel.

So the only major distribution I’ve never used has actually been Debian, exactly because that has traditionally been harder to install. Which sounds kind of strange, since Debian is also considered to be the “hard-core technical” distribution, but that’s literally exactly what I personally do not want in a distro. I’ll take the nice ones with simple installers etc, because to me, that’s the whole and only point of using a distribution in the first place.

So I’ve used SuSE, Red Hat, Ubuntu, YDL (I ran my main setup on PowerPC-based machines for a while, and YDL - Yellow Dog Linux - ended up the easiest choice). Right now, most of my machines seem to have Fedora 7 on then, but that’s only a statement of fact, not meant to be that I think it’s necessarily “better” than the other distros.

Oh c'mon, you've got to be kidding me. How can you not like Debian? From that attitude, you'd think he'd be running something like Linspire for Xandros. :)


Hard to believe someone with his technical expertise would look for the "easiest" to use Linux distro. I used Fedora 7 recently but became frustrated with it. SeLinux is annoying. It's overkill. And don't ask for help on Fedora forum. I had 17 year old teens with 2 month's of Linux experience offering me advice. Pathetic. I think (some distro's) it's a dumbing down thing.

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Postby llivv » 2007-08-06 15:02

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Postby muskrat » 2007-08-06 18:28

So the only major distribution I’ve never used has actually been Debian,............
So I’ve used SuSE, Red Hat, Ubuntu,


I suppose Ubuntu ought to be proud, the've managed to get the great Linus Torvalds to call them a major distro. When in reality thier a Debian child.

I for one really don't care how hard it is to install. What counts to me is stability of use and maintance ease after instalation. You'd think a software programer would realize that you only install once in a while, but you use and maintain it daily.

Quite Frankly I was floored to read a statement like that from him. I guess I never really thought about his choice of distros. But after playing with LFS, I guess I would have guessed he would have something like that. No distro he listed is in my or my friends top 10 list.

Well SuSe might slip into the top 10, but the rest fall far short. In realilty I suppose with several hundred distros to choice from it's no wonder he's as confussed as the rest of us which is the best. Now I don't feel so bad about my confussion of choices.

Frankly, I wonder why dying companies don't release their proprietary code to open source. Instead they take it to the graveyard of ideas. Corel and Libranet come to mind.


I aggree 100%, Libranet taking the admin control panel to the grave was a real mind boggler. There was quit a few people offered to help keep Libranet alive, but they choose the grave yard instead. I was a Libranet user, but not any more.


it is strange that someone who created and maintains the linux kernel opts for the easiest distro.Makes you wish he would make it easier to read the kernel source Wink


Or maybe just make it easier to recomplie the kernel. if ease is one of his main concerns.

Personally, I like to go to the source of the matter, if I can find it. Again, personally I'm already a bit skewed by the OP and further skewed by the subsequent posts in this thread. Not that being skewed is a good thing or a bad thing. it just "is" another one of those things. That being said, I believe Linus has the right to say what he says to whom ever he wants to say it, about "whatever", especially if someone is asking his opinion.


Your right, he can say what he pleases, on the same note we can comment on what he says. Especially when what he says shocks us as something a newbie might say but not a linux guru.

Personally, I started with Debian. I didn't think that it was a difficult distro to install, but I had no experience with other distros. So I had nothing to really compare my Debian experience with.I have since tried Ubuntu, and there is no question that Ubuntu is much easier to install than Debian is. Even now.


I guess I don't speak well enough english to understand easy or easier. Because to me Ubuntu isn't easier, it just uses the gui install. Debian has a great gui install but, it's not the default, you have to use an F key to get it started.

One thing the debian installer does that no body but slackware does is let you have your choice of software to install, (desktop, server, whatever). All the others install and you have to weed out software you don't want, then add software you want afterwards.

That's not easy to me.

Debian is not easier to install than some other distros. It never has been.

I'm basicly lazy, and love easy street. And I have been using debian since Woody with ease.

I suppose someone will have to define "easy" to me. I looked it up in Wikipidea Dictionary and got this. (The term easy is used, typically in a pejorative sense, to refer to someone (usually, a woman) who is receptive to sexual advances (in the usual case, by a man).) So that hasn't helped me to understand statments like "Debian Installer isn't easy, and never has been".

If debian isn't easy, then why are there more minor distros based on debian than any others?
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Postby BioTube » 2007-08-06 18:37

Debian's huge package library and apt have nothing to do with it. :wink:
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Re: Linus

Postby berts » 2007-08-06 19:53

michaelwr wrote:
Hard to believe someone with his technical expertise would look for the "easiest" to use Linux distro. I used Fedora 7 recently but became frustrated with it. SeLinux is annoying. It's overkill. And don't ask for help on Fedora forum. I had 17 year old teens with 2 month's of Linux experience offering me advice. Pathetic. I think (some distro's) it's a dumbing down thing.

Mike


With all due respect....
Some of those 17 year-olds could probably have told you how to turn SeLinux off :D

- Bert
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Re: Linus

Postby michaelwr » 2007-08-06 23:06

berts wrote:
michaelwr wrote:
Hard to believe someone with his technical expertise would look for the "easiest" to use Linux distro. I used Fedora 7 recently but became frustrated with it. SeLinux is annoying. It's overkill. And don't ask for help on Fedora forum. I had 17 year old teens with 2 month's of Linux experience offering me advice. Pathetic. I think (some distro's) it's a dumbing down thing.

Mike


With all due respect....
Some of those 17 year-olds could probably have told you how to turn SeLinux off :D

- Bert


I have nothing against 17 year olds, maybe I should have been more specific. It was his having only 2 months experience with Linux. I was asking a question regarding device permissions because Nero linux and gnomebaker wouldn't recognize my DVD. Nautilus cd/dvd creator worked just fine. Their solution was to install k3b. (which didn't work by the way). I wanted to have read and write permissions as user. No one had a solution for that. It was just try this, try that. Answering a question with a question. Fedora is very easy to install. I prefer something a little more challenging I guess. Because I have found the easier the distro is, the less knowledgeable (apparently) the users are.

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Postby ericson007 » 2007-08-26 13:18

Hard to believe someone with his technical expertise would look for the "easiest" to use Linux distro. I used Fedora 7 recently but became frustrated with it. SeLinux is annoying. It's overkill. And don't ask for help on Fedora forum. I had 17 year old teens with 2 month's of Linux experience offering me advice. Pathetic. I think (some distro's) it's a dumbing down thing.

Mike


Besides I have been using linux for several years on and off. I still basically know nothing about it, there is just too much to know in the world, everyone can't know everything. Although... thinking that a 17 year old or a person using linux for 1 day doesn't have experience is bullocks.

When trucks first got stuck under bridges engineers couldn't figure out how to get them out. A child told them to deflate the tyres and it worked.

In the second world war pilots from GB had problems landing in fog. A farmer not knowing anything about aviation said they should put cows next to the runways to lift the fog because he saw the fog above the cows' hides. They laughed at him saying he's an idiot, someone however took the advice and lit fires instead of using cows. Thus visibility is improved.

Don't judge others they might have more experience in other fields. Besides if you do not want the advice of other incompetent people buy a box linux version and get their tech support or switch back to windows.
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Postby Eck » 2007-08-27 04:08

Yeah, kids can surprise you! Especially since their minds haven't been damaged yet from ozone or whatever like old farts like me. They can absorb knowledge pretty quick!

Kind of annoying having a conversation with 'em sometimes though. Especially if you offer to help them out with some of your experience. Youngins' are sensitive as far as taking advice and enjoying some criticism. Can you spell defensive?

So as long as you keep telling them how right they are and pushing praise they'll spill what they know to help you.

Then you can get out of the forum and take some aspirin.
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Re: Linus

Postby JN4OldSchool » 2007-09-05 16:18

michaelwr wrote:
berts wrote:
michaelwr wrote:
Hard to believe someone with his technical expertise would look for the "easiest" to use Linux distro. I used Fedora 7 recently but became frustrated with it. SeLinux is annoying. It's overkill. And don't ask for help on Fedora forum. I had 17 year old teens with 2 month's of Linux experience offering me advice. Pathetic. I think (some distro's) it's a dumbing down thing.

Mike


With all due respect....
Some of those 17 year-olds could probably have told you how to turn SeLinux off :D

- Bert


I have nothing against 17 year olds, maybe I should have been more specific. It was his having only 2 months experience with Linux. I was asking a question regarding device permissions because Nero linux and gnomebaker wouldn't recognize my DVD. Nautilus cd/dvd creator worked just fine. Their solution was to install k3b. (which didn't work by the way). I wanted to have read and write permissions as user. No one had a solution for that. It was just try this, try that. Answering a question with a question. Fedora is very easy to install. I prefer something a little more challenging I guess. Because I have found the easier the distro is, the less knowledgeable (apparently) the users are.

M.


No offense, I guess we all have our perceptions, but isnt what you are saying here an oxymoron? You get stumped by a simply permissions problem, one which, BTW, would apply to any Linux distro, and instead of using google or searching the forum you rely on someone catering to your needs, but yet you say Fedora didnt challenge you and you need a harder distro like debian (which is as plain jane, mainstream Linux as it gets, no offense to debian as this is a good, great thing) to challenge your intellect? K3B works fine for me. In Gnome, KDE, Xfce, e17, and Fluxbox all in Fedora 7. Also in my installs of Ubuntu and etch. Maybe you should get out of your root account now and then when installing things? :wink:

I am leaving Fedora Forums because of what you are saying. Someone in here, in another thread, put it so well. In the effort to try to make idiotic questions and trolls welcome the powers that be want to gag the gurus who do have the answers. In consequence, questions are being answered by people who have no clue themselves. But instead of taking into account the fact that these forums are run by everyday people volunteering their time to at least TRY to help others, you instead bash a distro because of a few teenagers in a support forum? Then make a blanket statement about the intelligence of the three MILLION plus Fedora users because no one bothered to answer your question in the two or three hours you gave it the chance?

I am truly sorry you have the outlook you do. I think you may be missing out on several good distros because of it. But, if you are happy with debian then it doesnt matter anyway. But I hope that, despite the anger you are bound to feel towards me because of this post, you think about what I have said.
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Re: Linus

Postby Bro.Tiag » 2007-09-05 18:04

JN4OldSchool wrote:Someone in here, in another thread, put it so well. In the effort to try to make idiotic questions and trolls welcome the powers that be want to gag the gurus who do have the answers. In consequence, questions are being answered by people who have no clue themselves.


I resemble that remark (no offense taken). I do answer a lot of questions not because I know the answer but because I want to learn more as well.

Cheers
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Re: Linus

Postby JN4OldSchool » 2007-09-05 18:16

Bro.Tiag wrote:
JN4OldSchool wrote:Someone in here, in another thread, put it so well. In the effort to try to make idiotic questions and trolls welcome the powers that be want to gag the gurus who do have the answers. In consequence, questions are being answered by people who have no clue themselves.


I resemble that remark (no offense taken). I do answer a lot of questions not because I know the answer but because I want to learn more as well.

Cheers

Haha, I am getting off on the right foot here :D

Ah, hey, none of us have all the answers, and there are usually many many ways to go about the same task. By all means participate and try to help. But also know your own limitations and dont get into a pissing war with another forum member while the poor OP is left hanging with no answer. You said the key words in "I want to learn more as well." Me too! I have refrained from answering any help questions in here so far, and probably will for a while. I have two running installs of etch, but admitidly Fedora was and is my main distro and I need to learn the "debian" way. Rickh's how to on getting started is awesome, I learned a lot. I am lurking, seeing how the usual problems are handled in here. I have nothing to prove, I just want to help too.
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Re: Linus

Postby Bro.Tiag » 2007-09-05 19:49

JN4OldSchool wrote:
Bro.Tiag wrote:
JN4OldSchool wrote:Someone in here, in another thread, put it so well. In the effort to try to make idiotic questions and trolls welcome the powers that be want to gag the gurus who do have the answers. In consequence, questions are being answered by people who have no clue themselves.


I resemble that remark (no offense taken). I do answer a lot of questions not because I know the answer but because I want to learn more as well.

Cheers

Haha, I am getting off on the right foot here :D

Ah, hey, none of us have all the answers, and there are usually many many ways to go about the same task. By all means participate and try to help. But also know your own limitations and dont get into a pissing war with another forum member while the poor OP is left hanging with no answer. You said the key words in "I want to learn more as well." Me too! I have refrained from answering any help questions in here so far, and probably will for a while. I have two running installs of etch, but admitidly Fedora was and is my main distro and I need to learn the "debian" way. Rickh's how to on getting started is awesome, I learned a lot. I am lurking, seeing how the usual problems are handled in here. I have nothing to prove, I just want to help too.


Welcome to Debian & the forums.

Cheers
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Postby rickh » 2007-09-06 02:10

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