What is a "Real" Debian User.

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Jackiebrown · #46 Post by **Jackiebrown** » 2007-11-17 06:04

rickh wrote:2. Debian Users respect the Debian Social Contract. That doesn't mean, they only use "free" software, but it does mean that they are aware of the difference, understand and support the reasons Debian has made that commitment, and do use free software when it is equivalent to non-free options for their expectations. (Example: They use Iceweasel, not Firefox.)

I strongly agree with this statement.

Ingov · #47 Post by **Ingov** » 2007-11-17 06:08

rickh wrote:Is there a language barrier here?

I don't think so. It sounds like she means that the ones you described like

"I'm running Etch, but I need the latest Nvidia drivers, so I added Lenny and Sid to my sources.list, and now...."

are really "Real" Debian users. And, since Debian is an OS, the ones who really have a clue how to run it properly are not "Real" users any more, but developers.

lemoicavalier · #48 Post by **lemoicavalier** » 2007-11-17 06:31

CocoAUS wrote: Although, openSuSE has one-click installs through the internet, and Ubuntu has the restricted manager.

I did think about those as I was writing my post, and I was going to mention them... But both are way too recent products. 1 year from now I fully expect all mayor distros (Including Debian) to carry something similar to that.

Not to mention the fact that I do not have any experience with the Restricted Manager since I'm yet to touch the new Ubuntu; and the fact that the MS Suse's thing was so buggy when I was playing around with the release that I rather choose to ignore it's existence for now

Telemachus · #49 Post by **Telemachus** » 2007-11-17 15:09

rickh wrote:It may be difficult to define a "real Debian User," but if the request for help starts out....
"I'm running Etch, but I need the latest Nvidia drivers, so I added Lenny and Sid to my sources.list, and now...."
... it ain't one.

That person is certainly confused, but saying "not a real Debian user" doesn't do anything except (maybe) make you feel superior. I just don't see the point. You know more than that person, no question. You could try to help him. If you think he's just an idiot or not worth helping, then do something else with your time. Why even bother to read it, quote it and label it?

Gun_Smoke · #50 Post by **Gun_Smoke** » 2007-11-17 16:36

Great thread to put a first post in..

I am a 'Real' Debian user. I wake up everyday check my email, read my local paper, check out a few various things and head out the door and go to work. I come home read up a little bit about linux and debian, make dinner, catch 'House' or whatever is on and think about my next linux adventure. When I make it down to the level of needing to come to a forum and ask for help it is usually because I don't exactly know what I need to be looking for. I have no problem RTFM or even google. Sometimes I just plain don't have a clue what I'm actually looking for. I don't work in the IT field. I don't have local friends or family that are or even know about linux. I don't spend 8 hours a day on web forums and IRC channels to stay up on the lingo and what seems to be the current preferred way of accomplishing something. Case in point.. I have an external HD connected via USB. I have no idea where to find it when it isn't mounted. I don't even really know what to google to get pointed in the direction I need to be in. Is it insanely stupidly simple? I'd bet half the people who will read this will think if I can do that then I shouldn't be using linux. I've managed to teach myself to use vim, irssi, bitchx, rsync, apt, and a whole bunch of other commands and programs. But the drive issue hasn't come up yet.. Its always mounted when I log in. I learn or teach myself how to climb the wall when I get to it.

I you want to just give me the RTFM or the like well then I'd bet its because 1/2 the time you yourself can't come up with the words to pull off a half way explained response to exactly what they should be looking at. Tell me I should be looking at blah blah blah package, or man file, or webpage. Or no, you actually should be searching for this term not that term. Get my point?

Well kick off is coming soon..

M GO BLUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bad luck to the buckeye... lol

rickh · #51 Post by **rickh** » 2007-11-17 17:46

I have an external HD connected via USB. I have no idea where to find it when it isn't mounted.

Given the overall scenario you describe, that is a very sensible question. You definitely don't need to know every little intricacy of the user interface to use Debian.

Assuming you are using Gnome, I would take a look in System|Preferences for options related to the handling of Removeable Drives. It may be helpful to install gnome-mount if you don't have it already.

Azriel · #52 Post by **Azriel** » 2007-11-17 18:19

Gun_Smoke wrote:I you want to just give me the RTFM or the like

Actually, of all the times i saw that kind of answer, the solution to the issue WAS in the FM. I haven't got the link, but someone posted in this forum to say he couldn't compile a program. He was using ./configure, and the particular program masn't to be built this way.

Well, he posted the output of the uncompressing of the archive, and fact is there was a README file, and even more important IMO: there was an executable named "install"... He didn't even took the time to search, he just typed ./configure, saw it wasn't right, and went straight-away to a forum.

I totally agree that sometimes the answer isn't obvious. At all. In your case, i also had troubles finding where are those usb port in my computer (and i found it the "hard" way: automounting them, then seing what is mounted using the "mount" command...).

I think noone is saying that Debian users should know everything about everything, but only that you should try to think a little by yourself before running to the closest forum available, pasting the command someone gave you, and no to have learn anything in the process... So the next time you encouter this issue, you won't be able to deal with it yourself, and you'll just ask again...

So, that's kinda different from microsoft, because on linux alsmot everything is centralized: you install 99% of your softwares using apt-get or compiling them. That's why you have to be - even if only a little - awake of how does the whole thing work. On microsoft, you just download the .exe from the software internet page, and if i doesn't work, well... You just try to find something else, because odds are you are not gonna fix it...

lemoicavalier · #53 Post by **lemoicavalier** » 2007-11-17 18:54

Azriel wrote: Actually, of all the times i saw that kind of answer, the solution to the issue WAS in the FM. I haven't got the link, but someone posted in this forum to say he couldn't compile a program. He was using ./configure, and the particular program masn't to be built this way.

Well, he posted the output of the uncompressing of the archive, and fact is there was a README file, and even more important IMO: there was an executable named "install"... He didn't even took the time to search, he just typed ./configure, saw it wasn't right, and went straight-away to a forum.

I'm sure you're talking about this post

This is just an example of what I've been saying: Answering with RTFM for sakes of answering is not the best approach... And it's not about holding their hands with very simple stuff (Again, simple for us) as in that example, either.

If it's "easy enough", then point the error, tell them where to find the information they need, and if possible give a few tips so they can avoid similar mistakes in the future.

Then there is this post. More "advanced problems" like that one do require from us to hold people's hand all the way to the end. Now, I could've said RTFM or Google since I know all the answers are available there, but why put a new user thru all that crap when I can just give them a crash course? Now that he knows what to look for and has access to move advanced tips and tricks he is going to be able to fix that or similar problems in the future...

alleluia20 · #54 Post by **alleluia20** » 2007-11-17 20:25

I agree with some of them, I do not agree with others:

* The social contract does not forbid to release install CDs with non-free drivers, as long as the 100 % free counterpart is also available. I think, with all respect, that this is a misconception of the starter of this thread

* This thinking that "I know a lot about Linux" is rubbish. First, Debian is in the "straightforward distro" category. So use Linux from scratch instead. Secondly, even if you use LFS, you are taking code and compiling it without knowing what the code is doing. Finally, if you are a LFS user and you have the time to read all the code you compile: why restrict to the software? Buy some transistors and make the CPU yourself!

ka3 · #55 Post by **ka3** » 2007-11-17 21:38

My opinion of a "Real Debian user" is someone who's willing to learn. I personally use Debian because of the dpkg/apt package management system. It's easier to use than RPMs (*shudders*), and does everything I want it to. I don't know the location of every single configuration file, nor do I want to know. I'm not afraid to ask questions, just as I enjoy answering. I do _not_ like elitism, but nor do I like trolling. If everyone followed the guidelines on this page, life in general would be more enjoyable.

oswaldkelso · #56 Post by **oswaldkelso** » 2007-11-17 21:57

I think a "real Debian User" is someone that has a "real use for Debian" It has absolutely nothing to do with your skill or knowledge of how Debian works.

Maybe the next thread in off topic should be "I'm a real Vista User" (note capitalization) or "I'm a real Ford User" or even "I'm a real BBC User" as we can see it's not the capitalization that's silly it's the REAL bit. Because REAL in this case means better than you.

If all the REAL Debian users get pissed off with posters who don't RTFM maybe there should be a section on the board called REAL Debian Users. Then have one of those little cryptic clues like ."enter the code to show your routing table" to ensure they don't get bothered by unreal Debian users.

garrincha · #57 Post by **garrincha** » 2007-11-17 22:14

Real Debian user Garrinha away in South America.

Edit: And posting from a WinXP machine!

CocoAUS · #58 Post by **CocoAUS** » 2007-11-17 23:20

rick, how would a "real Debian User" compare to a "real Arch User"? Or a "real Ubuntu User"?

Telemachus · #59 Post by **Telemachus** » 2007-11-17 23:24

CocoAUS wrote:Or a "real Ubuntu User"?

This should be interesting...

ka3 · #60 Post by **ka3** » 2007-11-17 23:32

Stand clear of the explosion of replies, everybody. Stay clear.

rickh · #61 Post by **rickh** » 2007-11-18 00:09

rick, how would a "real Debian User" compare to a "real Arch User"? Or a "real Ubuntu User"?

Since I don't use those distros, I don't know what the reasonable expectations might be.

I will say this; any distro could support "real" Linux Users, but Debian Users should understand and appreciate the things that make Debian unique.

Newbie oriented distros want to be appreciated for how much like MS Windows they are.

ka3 · #62 Post by **ka3** » 2007-11-18 00:10

rickh wrote: I will say this; any distro could support "real" Linux Users, but Debian Users should understand and appreciate the things that make Debian unique.

Good point.

CocoAUS · #63 Post by **CocoAUS** » 2007-11-18 00:25

rickh wrote:Since I don't use those distros, I don't know what the reasonable expectations might be.

I will say this; any distro could support "real" Linux Users, but Debian Users should understand and appreciate the things that make Debian unique.

Newbie oriented distros want to be appreciated for how much like MS Windows they are.

Ubuntu is essentially 99% Debian Sid, so I'll just assume a "real Ubuntu user" is the same as a "real Debian User".

And since we're being elitist, I think Debian is a newbie-oriented distro. It's pretty automatic, and again, essentially the same as Ubuntu. Arch and Gentoo are much more hardcore than Debian. A "real Debian User" is nothing compared to a "real Arch" or a "real Gentoo User" who actually understands his system and can do much more than simply use m-a to install a module.

A "real Debian User" is nothing more than someone being elitist about using a newbie-oriented distro.

rickh · #64 Post by **rickh** » 2007-11-18 00:38

Ubuntu is essentially 99% Debian Sid...

I suppose women are 99% like men. I'm mighty happy about the difference.

CocoAUS · #65 Post by **CocoAUS** » 2007-11-18 00:45

rickh wrote:
Ubuntu is essentially 99% Debian Sid...
I suppose women are 99% like men. I'm mighty happy about the difference.

Nice try, except you'd have to show that the differences between Debian and Ubuntu are major. In fact, they're not. I interpret just about all of your comments in this thread--especially the last two--as trying very hard to distance yourself from others, and to make yourself part of a club that you can take pride in. The problem is when you take that club--"real Debian Users"--and try to make it exclusive and superior. At the mere mention of Ubuntu, you said that you wouldn't know about real Ubuntu Users, but then you had no problem commenting that newbie distros were all about being Windows-like. So which is it? Do you not know about them, or do you know enough about them to say what they're all about?

Unless you can point out significant differences between Ubuntu and Debian, I'd suggest you're nothing more than a "real Ubuntu User".

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