I agree with one of llivv's comments. Finding just where to read up on a topic to answer a specific question can be a daunting task. Google often gives too many options to review completely, and searching this forum, or FAQ's can turn up a lot of posts that only periferally touch on the topic. (This last bit may reflect more on my poor search skills rather than on the actual forum content.)
One of the best investments I ever made was to actually buy the Debian Bible, and Debian System. They are not perfect, but they are full of a lot of useful information. Just my two cents worth.
Joe
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What is a "Real" Debian User.
I have to agree on some points.
Everytime i've changed of distro, i've always passed about a week reading the FM about the distro way of doing things, how should i fix what IS gonna break, and what MIGHT break. And so on. So i never had any trouble installing something new. And i think that's always the way of doing things.
One of the things i head the most concerning Debian, was that i was "a good distro for learning when you have a low-middle unix level", and that is was a "distro of old people who don't like to change, and who don't like the youth who does not have their knowledge", in other words, lot a elitism.
So i switched knowing all that, and i think more of less everything i've read come true. Of course not everyone is an Elitist the way the OP meant it, but i do believe Debian try to keep his user at some level of DIY, and that's how we learn !
If you neither want to learn, or try to do things your way, i see ne reason why you would want to switch to Debian. There are plenty of distro who will be truly happy to welcome new GNU/Linux users, or even some more easy to use. That's the strength of GNU/Linux: you totally have the choice of the quality level the distro expect its users to have, and of the way of doing things.
Everytime i've changed of distro, i've always passed about a week reading the FM about the distro way of doing things, how should i fix what IS gonna break, and what MIGHT break. And so on. So i never had any trouble installing something new. And i think that's always the way of doing things.
One of the things i head the most concerning Debian, was that i was "a good distro for learning when you have a low-middle unix level", and that is was a "distro of old people who don't like to change, and who don't like the youth who does not have their knowledge", in other words, lot a elitism.
So i switched knowing all that, and i think more of less everything i've read come true. Of course not everyone is an Elitist the way the OP meant it, but i do believe Debian try to keep his user at some level of DIY, and that's how we learn !
If you neither want to learn, or try to do things your way, i see ne reason why you would want to switch to Debian. There are plenty of distro who will be truly happy to welcome new GNU/Linux users, or even some more easy to use. That's the strength of GNU/Linux: you totally have the choice of the quality level the distro expect its users to have, and of the way of doing things.
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JohnDeere630
- Posts: 632
- Joined: 2006-09-02 02:01
Just my 2 cents worth....
After reading all the posts in this thread, I think everyone has raised valid points and counterpoints...to each his own; everyone here has their own reasons for using Debian. But one aspect I haven't seen mentioned is one of my own main reasons for preferring Debian: Pride. My very first Linux experience was with Sarge. Each step of the process, from installation, to getting x to run, then getting a desktop environment (Gnome) running, then sound, etc. involved a LOT of Googling, searching forums, etc. Each step mastered was a source of pride and a sense of accomplishment. It took me 2 weeks of on again off again effort, but I got it all running without asking ANY questions. In retrospect that may not have been the most sensible approach, but I sure learned a lot by being forced to dig deep into the guts of the OS. You can't do that with windows, thats for sure. I followed the same approach for MythTV...took me awhile to get it all sorted out, but well worth the effort.
So I guess this all makes me a Real Debian User
Maybe what some call elitism is really just pride in choosing the lesser travelled path, and making it take you where you want to go.
After reading all the posts in this thread, I think everyone has raised valid points and counterpoints...to each his own; everyone here has their own reasons for using Debian. But one aspect I haven't seen mentioned is one of my own main reasons for preferring Debian: Pride. My very first Linux experience was with Sarge. Each step of the process, from installation, to getting x to run, then getting a desktop environment (Gnome) running, then sound, etc. involved a LOT of Googling, searching forums, etc. Each step mastered was a source of pride and a sense of accomplishment. It took me 2 weeks of on again off again effort, but I got it all running without asking ANY questions. In retrospect that may not have been the most sensible approach, but I sure learned a lot by being forced to dig deep into the guts of the OS. You can't do that with windows, thats for sure. I followed the same approach for MythTV...took me awhile to get it all sorted out, but well worth the effort.
So I guess this all makes me a Real Debian User
Maybe what some call elitism is really just pride in choosing the lesser travelled path, and making it take you where you want to go.
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lemoicavalier
- Posts: 441
- Joined: 2007-07-22 10:58
- Location: Plano, Tx. US of A
There are two "requirements" to join Debian that those with an elitist mentality keep bringing up:
1- If you want to be here you should be a person with an inclination towards IT.
2- You need to have more then the basic knowledge of Linux so you can fix stuff once crap hits the fan.
If you can't say "that's me!" to both of those points you shouldn't be using Debian! Go use Mandriva, or you know what? Do not even think about using Linux! Go back to your Windows playpen, you pansy!!!
Well... If say... I don't know... Car companies!... If car companies were to implement a similar grading system to all new car users then I'd probably still be riding a bicycle to work!
I have a) No frelling idea as to how to fix the simples of problems when it comes to my car, and b) I do not want to learn how to do it! I'm not mechanical inclined! If something breaks I go to my grease monkey!
It seems that the elitists are forgetting that not everyone likes/knows how to use Google, or that not everybody wants to know exactly how all the Linux components work! A lot of this new users are normal people who just want to get away from Microsoft's grip! Users that are used to getting a PC at the store with all of the software and drivers already installed! They should be applaud and welcome with open arms for even trying! Hell! Even for asking the questions here instead of using Google!
Besides, can you imagine how boring this place would be if only "Real Debian Users" were to join? Probably the only sub-forum with any kind of activity would be the "off topic" one.
Oh! And you guys really need to get off your high horses, Debian it's no harder to install then any other modern Linux distro out there... Nor is it any harder to add repositories or install drivers! If anything it's easier! I still have nightmares about the horrors of RPM base distros! Just thinking how many problems PLF used to give me back when Mandriva was Mandrake... Ugh! It shivers me penis, I tell ya!
And finally, I'm going to join the bunch of you and tell you why is that I use Debian and no other distro:
- I want to compile as little software as possible!
- I want the bleeding edge!
That's right! I do not give a rat's ass about stability or any of that crap. Hell! For a whole year I was using BLFS if only because with a few, minor modifications I could get the latest KDE and Kernel running...
But then I got bored of having to spend days compiling software. And here I am! "apt-get update && apt-get upgrade"-ing everyday like it's going out of style!... That's how I roll.
1- If you want to be here you should be a person with an inclination towards IT.
2- You need to have more then the basic knowledge of Linux so you can fix stuff once crap hits the fan.
If you can't say "that's me!" to both of those points you shouldn't be using Debian! Go use Mandriva, or you know what? Do not even think about using Linux! Go back to your Windows playpen, you pansy!!!
Well... If say... I don't know... Car companies!... If car companies were to implement a similar grading system to all new car users then I'd probably still be riding a bicycle to work!
I have a) No frelling idea as to how to fix the simples of problems when it comes to my car, and b) I do not want to learn how to do it! I'm not mechanical inclined! If something breaks I go to my grease monkey!
It seems that the elitists are forgetting that not everyone likes/knows how to use Google, or that not everybody wants to know exactly how all the Linux components work! A lot of this new users are normal people who just want to get away from Microsoft's grip! Users that are used to getting a PC at the store with all of the software and drivers already installed! They should be applaud and welcome with open arms for even trying! Hell! Even for asking the questions here instead of using Google!
Besides, can you imagine how boring this place would be if only "Real Debian Users" were to join? Probably the only sub-forum with any kind of activity would be the "off topic" one.
Oh! And you guys really need to get off your high horses, Debian it's no harder to install then any other modern Linux distro out there... Nor is it any harder to add repositories or install drivers! If anything it's easier! I still have nightmares about the horrors of RPM base distros! Just thinking how many problems PLF used to give me back when Mandriva was Mandrake... Ugh! It shivers me penis, I tell ya!
And finally, I'm going to join the bunch of you and tell you why is that I use Debian and no other distro:
- I want to compile as little software as possible!
- I want the bleeding edge!
That's right! I do not give a rat's ass about stability or any of that crap. Hell! For a whole year I was using BLFS if only because with a few, minor modifications I could get the latest KDE and Kernel running...
But then I got bored of having to spend days compiling software. And here I am! "apt-get update && apt-get upgrade"-ing everyday like it's going out of style!... That's how I roll.
Debian Sid, Kernel 2.6.23.8, KDE 3.5.8
I have conquered the holy mountain horizontally!
LeMoi, He whose planet is Venus.
I have conquered the holy mountain horizontally!
LeMoi, He whose planet is Venus.
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Telemachus
- Posts: 4574
- Joined: 2006-12-25 15:53
- Been thanked: 2 times
@lemoicavalier
Well said.
Although, openSuSE has one-click installs through the internet, and Ubuntu has the restricted manager. Other than that, I think I agree with your comment 100%.
This whole "real debian user" thing sounds like some high school kids arguing about who's a "real punk" and who's a poser.
Well said.
Although, openSuSE has one-click installs through the internet, and Ubuntu has the restricted manager. Other than that, I think I agree with your comment 100%.
This whole "real debian user" thing sounds like some high school kids arguing about who's a "real punk" and who's a poser.
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lemoicavalier
- Posts: 441
- Joined: 2007-07-22 10:58
- Location: Plano, Tx. US of A
Exactly!Telemachus wrote:So, what do you think of Ron Paul?Lemoicavalier wrote:Besides, can you imagine how boring this place would be if only "Real Debian Users" were to join? Probably the only sub-forum with any kind of activity would be the "off topic" one.
Debian Sid, Kernel 2.6.23.8, KDE 3.5.8
I have conquered the holy mountain horizontally!
LeMoi, He whose planet is Venus.
I have conquered the holy mountain horizontally!
LeMoi, He whose planet is Venus.
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txHarleyMan
- Posts: 366
- Joined: 2007-08-06 13:32
- Location: Texas
It may be difficult to define a "real Debian User," but if the request for help starts out....
... it ain't one."I'm running Etch, but I need the latest Nvidia drivers, so I added Lenny and Sid to my sources.list, and now...."
Debian-Lenny/Sid 32/64
Desktop: Generic Core 2 Duo, EVGA 680i, Nvidia
Laptop: Generic Intel SIS/AC97
Desktop: Generic Core 2 Duo, EVGA 680i, Nvidia
Laptop: Generic Intel SIS/AC97
In the documentary "Revolution OS" Linus says something interesting about operating systems. I don't remember the exact quote but basically he says that an operating system should stay out of the user's way. It should run the programs and take care of the 'inner workings' and not be seen by the user. Basically, a user should not need to interact with the OS it self.
So I guess that if one need to be a 'Real Debian User' to run it, it has failed miserably...
So I guess that if one need to be a 'Real Debian User' to run it, it has failed miserably...
Is there a language barrier here? Somehow I don't see any connection between that comment and anything else in the thread. By "OS", I assume Linus was talking about the kernel. If "interacting with the OS" means building your own kernel, or doing anything more complicated than using m-a to build an occasional module, it's way past any ability of mine.an operating system should stay out of the user's way. It should run the programs and take care of the 'inner workings' and not be seen by the user. Basically, a user should not need to interact with the OS it self.
So I guess that if one need to be a 'Real Debian User' to run it, it has failed miserably...
Debian-Lenny/Sid 32/64
Desktop: Generic Core 2 Duo, EVGA 680i, Nvidia
Laptop: Generic Intel SIS/AC97
Desktop: Generic Core 2 Duo, EVGA 680i, Nvidia
Laptop: Generic Intel SIS/AC97
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Jackiebrown
- Posts: 1246
- Joined: 2007-01-02 04:46
- Location: San Antonio, TX
Re: What is a "Real" Debian User.
I strongly agree with this statement.rickh wrote:2. Debian Users respect the Debian Social Contract. That doesn't mean, they only use "free" software, but it does mean that they are aware of the difference, understand and support the reasons Debian has made that commitment, and do use free software when it is equivalent to non-free options for their expectations. (Example: They use Iceweasel, not Firefox.)
I don't think so. It sounds like she means that the ones you described likerickh wrote:Is there a language barrier here?
are really "Real" Debian users. And, since Debian is an OS, the ones who really have a clue how to run it properly are not "Real" users any more, but developers."I'm running Etch, but I need the latest Nvidia drivers, so I added Lenny and Sid to my sources.list, and now...."
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lemoicavalier
- Posts: 441
- Joined: 2007-07-22 10:58
- Location: Plano, Tx. US of A
I did think about those as I was writing my post, and I was going to mention them... But both are way too recent products. 1 year from now I fully expect all mayor distros (Including Debian) to carry something similar to that.CocoAUS wrote: Although, openSuSE has one-click installs through the internet, and Ubuntu has the restricted manager.
Not to mention the fact that I do not have any experience with the Restricted Manager since I'm yet to touch the new Ubuntu; and the fact that the MS Suse's thing was so buggy when I was playing around with the release that I rather choose to ignore it's existence for now
Debian Sid, Kernel 2.6.23.8, KDE 3.5.8
I have conquered the holy mountain horizontally!
LeMoi, He whose planet is Venus.
I have conquered the holy mountain horizontally!
LeMoi, He whose planet is Venus.
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Telemachus
- Posts: 4574
- Joined: 2006-12-25 15:53
- Been thanked: 2 times
That person is certainly confused, but saying "not a real Debian user" doesn't do anything except (maybe) make you feel superior. I just don't see the point. You know more than that person, no question. You could try to help him. If you think he's just an idiot or not worth helping, then do something else with your time. Why even bother to read it, quote it and label it?rickh wrote:It may be difficult to define a "real Debian User," but if the request for help starts out....... it ain't one."I'm running Etch, but I need the latest Nvidia drivers, so I added Lenny and Sid to my sources.list, and now...."
Great thread to put a first post in..
I am a 'Real' Debian user. I wake up everyday check my email, read my local paper, check out a few various things and head out the door and go to work. I come home read up a little bit about linux and debian, make dinner, catch 'House' or whatever is on and think about my next linux adventure. When I make it down to the level of needing to come to a forum and ask for help it is usually because I don't exactly know what I need to be looking for. I have no problem RTFM or even google. Sometimes I just plain don't have a clue what I'm actually looking for. I don't work in the IT field. I don't have local friends or family that are or even know about linux. I don't spend 8 hours a day on web forums and IRC channels to stay up on the lingo and what seems to be the current preferred way of accomplishing something. Case in point.. I have an external HD connected via USB. I have no idea where to find it when it isn't mounted. I don't even really know what to google to get pointed in the direction I need to be in. Is it insanely stupidly simple? I'd bet half the people who will read this will think if I can do that then I shouldn't be using linux. I've managed to teach myself to use vim, irssi, bitchx, rsync, apt, and a whole bunch of other commands and programs. But the drive issue hasn't come up yet.. Its always mounted when I log in. I learn or teach myself how to climb the wall when I get to it.
I you want to just give me the RTFM or the like well then I'd bet its because 1/2 the time you yourself can't come up with the words to pull off a half way explained response to exactly what they should be looking at. Tell me I should be looking at blah blah blah package, or man file, or webpage. Or no, you actually should be searching for this term not that term. Get my point?
Well kick off is coming soon..
M GO BLUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bad luck to the buckeye... lol
I am a 'Real' Debian user. I wake up everyday check my email, read my local paper, check out a few various things and head out the door and go to work. I come home read up a little bit about linux and debian, make dinner, catch 'House' or whatever is on and think about my next linux adventure. When I make it down to the level of needing to come to a forum and ask for help it is usually because I don't exactly know what I need to be looking for. I have no problem RTFM or even google. Sometimes I just plain don't have a clue what I'm actually looking for. I don't work in the IT field. I don't have local friends or family that are or even know about linux. I don't spend 8 hours a day on web forums and IRC channels to stay up on the lingo and what seems to be the current preferred way of accomplishing something. Case in point.. I have an external HD connected via USB. I have no idea where to find it when it isn't mounted. I don't even really know what to google to get pointed in the direction I need to be in. Is it insanely stupidly simple? I'd bet half the people who will read this will think if I can do that then I shouldn't be using linux. I've managed to teach myself to use vim, irssi, bitchx, rsync, apt, and a whole bunch of other commands and programs. But the drive issue hasn't come up yet.. Its always mounted when I log in. I learn or teach myself how to climb the wall when I get to it.
I you want to just give me the RTFM or the like well then I'd bet its because 1/2 the time you yourself can't come up with the words to pull off a half way explained response to exactly what they should be looking at. Tell me I should be looking at blah blah blah package, or man file, or webpage. Or no, you actually should be searching for this term not that term. Get my point?
Well kick off is coming soon..
M GO BLUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bad luck to the buckeye... lol