What is a "Real" Debian User.

If it doesn't relate to Debian, but you still want to share it, please do it here

Postby Lou » 2007-11-16 13:59

LMAO! GOOD PICTURE! any catsup?
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Postby Bro.Tiag » 2007-11-16 14:02

Lou wrote:LMAO! GOOD PICTURE! any catsup?

Aye, as are the rest from, http://bandcamp.tv/linux-demotivators/
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Postby Lou » 2007-11-16 14:05

I bookmarked the site, thanks Bro
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Postby detly » 2007-11-16 14:14

edoviak wrote:Yes. I do have a mission to convert the world to GNU/Linux and if you don't like it, **** you!


I don't follow you, but I'm not gonna swear at you for it. Seems to me that your problem would be solved if you convinced one person — or one person's boss — that you should be able to use something else. They don't even have to like it themselves. But I don't see the generalisation. I fail to see how your problem requires converting the entire world to use Debian.

Do you think that Debian, or even GNU/Linux, is the ideal solution for everyone with a computer? Have you asked them all?

I guess if you really want to tell everyone what to do, that's your call. But I don't see it as my problem.
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Postby EMD » 2007-11-16 15:26

detly wrote:I fail to see how your problem requires converting the entire world to use Debian.
detly wrote:Do you think that Debian, or even GNU/Linux, is the ideal solution for everyone with a computer?

If you want to beat a nail into the wall, you use a hammer and not a screwdriver. Similarly, if you want to analyze a large dataset, you use a lightweight operating system, you don't start 359 modules at boot time and you don't run a memory intensive desktop (or better yet, you don't use a desktop at all). You pick the right tool for the job.

Are there some people who should use Microsoft Windows? Of course. Anyone who needs to use Adobe Acrobat and/or Photoshop should use MS Windows because those tools aren't available for GNU/Linux.

As far as I'm concerned, those are statements of the obvious. Somehow however Microsoft has forced its wonder-joy, one-size-fits-all operating system on us all.

That addiction must be broken.

Think about the articles you read in the popular press about technology. What are they describing? They don't review software. They don't compare office suites, web page editors, database managers, etc. Instead they talk about gadgets (e.g. the iPhone, the Google phone, etc.).

But when you go to the office what do you work with? Software or gadgets? You work with software. Software is our set of productivity tools. To increase our economy's productivity, we need innovation in this field. Innovation doesn't occur in the absence of competition however. And competition is what Microsoft has always sought to destroy.

GNU/Linux, the BSDs, Free Software and Open Source represent our best hope for restoring competition and innovation to the software industry.

Is GNU/Linux right for everyone? Of course not, but we should be given a choice of tools. If only one or two people in an enterprise that employs thousands of people ask for the software of their choice, the IT department will ignore them. If hundreds of people ask for the software of their choice, the IT department must listen.

That's why we must "evangelize." The ignorance of the overwhelming majority of computer users blocks innovation, hampers productivity growth and infringes upon freedom of choice -- our freedom of choice and their freedom of choice.
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Postby lemoicavalier » 2007-11-16 15:40

detly wrote:But there's a difference between being elitist and just being sensible and refusing to tolerate BS from people...

What's wrong with RTFM as an answer when the answer is clearly in the FM and requires only cursory Ring?


There is BS, and then there is BS. The line between elitism and "refusing to tolerate BS" is a very thin one that we should all avoid... The line between elitism and "tolerate some users' inability to deal with what we advanced users consider easy problems" is a well-define-3-meters-wide line!

And no, nothing wrong with RTFM as long as the entire content of your answer does not consist of only that.
Provide a quick answer to what is that people are asking for, then add a reference as to where to find more in-depth information...
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Postby rickh » 2007-11-16 15:57

My attitude has nothing to do with either "religion" or "elitism." I don't think Debian Users are smarter or in any way inherently superior to anyone else. It's simply a matter of personal responsibility, and a desire to do things as well as possible. I also think that learning is best done under a fairly heavy disciplinary model. That's probably because I'm old. When I went to school, being "taught to the tune of a hickory stick" was not a foreign concept.

A couple personal anecdotes.

When I was a high school freshman, I had an English teacher who seemed to take pride in ridiculing me and using me as an example to the class of how not to succeed. I remember an occasion when she asked me why I had used a certain sentence construction. I said it "sounded right." I can still remember her voice ringing. "It sounded right?!?! Why do you think we study grammar? To learn how to continue in our ignorance?" I never got a grade higher than a "C" from her, but from that day to this, I have learned nothing more about sentence construction and written communication. Thank you Miss Walker.

I was one of the last generation of computer programmers who learned everything on the job with no formal education. My mentor was a crackerjack programmer and IS professional who had a terrible temper. I particularly remember a major screw-up based in my failure to properly debug a small utility program I had written. He literally pushed me back against the wall yelling in my face things about general incompetence, and slovenly work habits. When he had cooled down, he was extremely apologetic and personal in asking forgiveness. To this day, I am proud of my response, which was... "Look! As long as you're teaching me so much, so fast; I can take a helluva yelling at."

Debian is a unique experiment, even in the unprecedented world of FOSS, and I think it should be respected and even honored for that character. It's not a religious issue. It's simply a matter of giving due credit. To use a Biblical analogy,
In a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

As I've said before, holding Debian Users to a higher level of accountability is not elitism. It is simply respect for a "special" tool.

Note: I like those "Linux Demotivators," too. I assume that most of you are familiar with the original Demotivators® Page, one of my favorite inspirational sites. An example ...
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Postby txHarleyMan » 2007-11-16 16:47

I have read Martin's book that rickh referred to earlier and I am in agreement with. IMO, Debian is a distro for the geeky, so to speak. Always was, always will be. And I am glad of that. If I have no alternative than to use something from non-free, I will, but that hasn't cropped up yet.

Just my .02 worth.
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Postby industrialpunk » 2007-11-16 16:53

I think the elitist feelings kind of build up sometimes after hearing the same questions over and over from people who want linux to just work for them without configuration. Sometimes their overwhelmed by the sheer flexibility and customizability (did I just make that word up?) of linux. They start to drown in possiblities and options. Some of it comes from reading the same questions over and over from people who refuse to read documentation. Some of it comes from your Ubuntu using friends who think they're Debian users until their gui config tool breaks and you have to go over and break out good-old vi. Some of it comes from the fact that Debian has a social contract. This isn't just a technical contract, but a contract based on a set of ethics and morality. In a esense, Debian is a distro guided by a social philosophy. Real Debian users are aware of this philosophy and it can become "religous" zealotry. And hey, Debian is pretty superior :)
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Postby xHemi » 2007-11-16 17:13

i can't possibly be a debian user, i just run the damn thing!

as a side note i don't care for elitism, only people who are insecure and/or haven't ever accomplished anything are the ones who generally carry this trait. there is never a reason not to be polite, i would rather have a living forum instead of a dead one.
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Postby llivv » 2007-11-16 18:23

Rickh, I don't need to tell you this, you usually know when you're right, right?
Buck up cowboy!
RTFM has it's place and we all ( well most of us that post regularly anyways) do it, for whatever reasons.
Regarding some of my recent posts, I made a (in my mind) huge breakthrough, in package management using the aptitude menu.
So naturally (for me) I stay up way too long and get googly eyed from wanting to get the next step done.
While also reporting here what I think is going on from what I see happening.
I've made a ton of mistakes in posts these last 2 or so weeks and I don't like to admit that, it's a bit embarrasskin to look back on them, wondering how to fix them.

Hell, I'm still cleaning the new hard drive a put in here a few days, maybe a week, ago. I was thinking I'd have 15 new partitions ready for install the night I dropped it into the machine.
Instead, I'm up to all kinds of hours in the mornings doing silly things like "completely purging xserver and reinstalling to see how many packages I can get away without having to reload, and still have the stuff I want running. Yesterday I purged more than 50,000 files of the 160,000 or so that were on this partition. I'm back up to 112,000 and pretty much the same stufff running.
My badblocks routine is finished, so I should go run gparted, like I wanted to do last week.

give um hell when you believe it's called for, after all you're probably right.

Edit: I think I need a speed reading course too :oops:
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Postby Telemachus » 2007-11-16 18:30

Since my jabs at Rickh (indirectly) started this thread, I should weigh in. In the original thread, I was glib, so half of what I have to say is still really about that. I objected to using "Real Debian user" as a stick to hit someone with (so to speak). Rick often says he believes in the rod as an important motivator in teaching. I don't agree, but that's an honest enough disagreement. In the case of that thread, however, I didn't object just to the gruff tone. To continue the teaching analogy, I thought that post was the equivalent of hitting a student for asking a question (not hitting them for having the wrong answer on the day of a test). Rather than say "Real Debian users don't do that" to mean "Don't do that you %$&* moron", it seems more productive to say, for example, "It isn't recommended to log into a gui session as root (and Debian disallows this by default) because blah blah blah." That way, you are actually teaching the person why the dumb idea is dumb and not just saying, in effect, "You're an idiot for wanting to do that."

I love Debian - so much so that I've been known to say that I bleed Debian red - but it ain't perfect, it ain't a religion and I'm not Superman because I use it. All that said, I think the whole idea of a "Real Debian user" is silly. I also find that talk of "the Debian way" and "real Debian users" sometimes amounts to hitting before teaching and, frankly, elitism. Maybe I'm just too sensitive. (Ironically enough, I'm a teacher in real life. No hickory stick anywhere in my desk though.)
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Postby llivv » 2007-11-16 19:10

edoviak wrote:
detly wrote:I fail to see how your problem requires converting the entire world to use Debian.
detly wrote:Do you think that Debian, or even GNU/Linux, is the ideal solution for everyone with a computer?

[...]
As far as I'm concerned, those are statements of the obvious. Somehow however Microsoft has forced its wonder-joy, one-size-fits-all operating system on us all.

That addiction must be broken.
[...]
But when you go to the office what do you work with? Software or gadgets? You work with software. Software is our set of productivity tools. To increase our economy's productivity, we need innovation in this field. Innovation doesn't occur in the absence of competition however. And competition is what Microsoft has always sought to destroy.
.

Dude, your preachin to the choir. I know one regualr here that is in almost exactly the same position as you find yourself with the IT department and m$. If he reads this perhaps he cqan provide some input on the frustrations of being surrounded by the evil empire all day.
Personally, I rather enjoyed your description of the hog. As a pre-installation specialist, I've seen some of the code IBM has contributed to it, and a few of the things that actually work correctly. However, the other things by far outweigh that which is right with m$.
regarding the wintel platform though, I believe your data sets would be reduced greatly if / when Moores Law is no longer achievable and m$ stops playing catchup to the hardware machine.

And I have agreed with detly's opinion every time I've read one of his posts. I was curious what touched a button in his original post to this thread.
I've also enjoyed a lot of your recent posts as well. :wink:


All in all, I'm just glad I'm not the last guy to voice his displeasure with the m$ product and marketing, even if it apparently (on the surface anyway) continually reduces the prices of new technologies. It's up to everyone individually to decide if that is real or just another venture capitalist scheme.
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Postby mzilikazi » 2007-11-16 19:23

It's easy enough to ignore those questions you do not feel merit your time. I do it too. Not sure why but I just don't mind the noobs as long as they're trying. I do find it irritating if they insist that we fix something (as if we owe them free support for trying Debian) or when they expect anything that they have no entitlement to. Other than that why should anyone care if a new user is trying to learn about Debian? Their level of experience is of no consequence to me. If they really want to learn they will. Let them ask their questions. If RTFM is appropriate tell them so but it's nice to at least point them to the FM. I remember having a hard time with that initially. I was willing to read but what exactly?
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Postby llivv » 2007-11-16 19:30

Bro.Tiag wrote:
Lou wrote:LMAO! GOOD PICTURE! any catsup?

Aye, as are the rest from, http://bandcamp.tv/linux-demotivators/

Oh shitskey
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