What is a "Real" Debian User.

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Postby rickh » 2007-11-18 00:09

rick, how would a "real Debian User" compare to a "real Arch User"? Or a "real Ubuntu User"?

Since I don't use those distros, I don't know what the reasonable expectations might be.

I will say this; any distro could support "real" Linux Users, but Debian Users should understand and appreciate the things that make Debian unique.

Newbie oriented distros want to be appreciated for how much like MS Windows they are.
Last edited by rickh on 2007-11-18 00:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ka3 » 2007-11-18 00:10

rickh wrote:I will say this; any distro could support "real" Linux Users, but Debian Users should understand and appreciate the things that make Debian unique.


Good point.
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Postby CocoAUS » 2007-11-18 00:25

rickh wrote:Since I don't use those distros, I don't know what the reasonable expectations might be.

I will say this; any distro could support "real" Linux Users, but Debian Users should understand and appreciate the things that make Debian unique.

Newbie oriented distros want to be appreciated for how much like MS Windows they are.


Ubuntu is essentially 99% Debian Sid, so I'll just assume a "real Ubuntu user" is the same as a "real Debian User".

And since we're being elitist, I think Debian is a newbie-oriented distro. It's pretty automatic, and again, essentially the same as Ubuntu. Arch and Gentoo are much more hardcore than Debian. A "real Debian User" is nothing compared to a "real Arch" or a "real Gentoo User" who actually understands his system and can do much more than simply use m-a to install a module.

A "real Debian User" is nothing more than someone being elitist about using a newbie-oriented distro.
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Postby rickh » 2007-11-18 00:38

Ubuntu is essentially 99% Debian Sid...

I suppose women are 99% like men. I'm mighty happy about the difference.
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Postby CocoAUS » 2007-11-18 00:45

rickh wrote:
Ubuntu is essentially 99% Debian Sid...

I suppose women are 99% like men. I'm mighty happy about the difference.


Nice try, except you'd have to show that the differences between Debian and Ubuntu are major. In fact, they're not. I interpret just about all of your comments in this thread--especially the last two--as trying very hard to distance yourself from others, and to make yourself part of a club that you can take pride in. The problem is when you take that club--"real Debian Users"--and try to make it exclusive and superior. At the mere mention of Ubuntu, you said that you wouldn't know about real Ubuntu Users, but then you had no problem commenting that newbie distros were all about being Windows-like. So which is it? Do you not know about them, or do you know enough about them to say what they're all about?

Unless you can point out significant differences between Ubuntu and Debian, I'd suggest you're nothing more than a "real Ubuntu User".
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Postby EMD » 2007-11-18 01:13

Telemachus wrote:
CocoAUS wrote:Or a "real Ubuntu User"?

This should be interesting...

Well, we haven't had a big slap-down yet, but I'm sure one is coming, so let me just ask why both "Real" Debian Users and "Fake" Debian Users feel the need to beat up on poor Ubuntu.
  • Is it because so many Ubuntu users are newbies?
  • Is it the bad habits they learn in Ubuntu Forums?
  • Is it the happy trail of sudo that they leave behind?
  • Is it because Ubuntu is a very popular distribution?
I don't use Ubuntu, but I do recommend it to GNU/Linux newbies because
  • they can get answers to common questions very quickly on Ubuntu Forums (is this a bug or a feature?)
  • they get a clean, working desktop right after installation
  • they can install PDF editor and NTFS-3G without having to deal with Backports or Lenny (makes my life easier).
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Postby CocoAUS » 2007-11-18 07:19

edoviak wrote:
  • Is it because so many Ubuntu users are newbies?
  • Is it the bad habits they learn in Ubuntu Forums?
  • Is it the happy trail of sudo that they leave behind?
  • Is it because Ubuntu is a very popular distribution?

I know plenty of Fedora, openSuSE, Debian, Arch, and even Gentoo newbies. There's nothing wrong with being a newbie, and it certainly isn't limited to Ubuntu. Ubuntu just has more marketing, thus a larger userbase, thus more newbies.
The ubtunforums does suck. They should burn, make Shuttleworth eat the ashes, crap it out, then burn it again over coals made from the first 5 or 6 cycles of Shuttleworth eating the community's ashes. Seriously, Ubuntu has one of the worst communities out there (Fedora and Arch are close behind).
There's nothing wrong with sudo whatsoever.
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Postby Telemachus » 2007-11-18 13:18

<off-topic-tangent>
CocoAUS wrote:There's nothing wrong with sudo whatsoever.

And that answer would be fine if the question were, "What does CocoAUS think about Ubuntu?" But if the question is "Why do other people not like Ubuntu?" then your beliefs about sudo are irrelevant. What I mean is that - as you know - lots of other people think that sudo is a bad option for system administration, and those people may dislike Ubuntu for that reason. (Just so there's no confusion, I'm not talking about me. I don't even particularly dislike Ubuntu. I just prefer Debian. But I think you misunderstood the spirit of Edoviak's comments. He wasn't railing against Ubuntu so much as trying to lay out various reasons that various people dislike Ubuntu. I've always thought the answer was easy: it's mostly envy, envy at all the attention that Ubuntu gets. Basically E's last reason.)</off-topic-tangent>
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Postby rbochan » 2007-11-18 14:08

edoviak wrote:...
[*]Is it because so many Ubuntu users are newbies?

From my own personal experience, it isn't because they are just newbies, per say, but that some of them really have no clue. Nor do they want one. Many, MANY have just heard of Linux in the first place and thought they'd be 'leet and grab a Ubuntu ISO. They don't even know how to burn an ISO, much less install and administer a Linux machine. Nor do they give a shit. And when they aren't willing to put in a little elbow grease, they just start spouting about how "LINUX IS THE SUX0RZ", when in reality it is _they_ who are the SUX0RZ.

[*]Is it the bad habits they learn in Ubuntu Forums?

See above. There's a ton of spoon-feeding that goes on there. Lending a hand is one thing. Spoon-feeding is another entirely. Spoon-feeding only begets more spoon-feeding.

[*]Is it the happy trail of sudo that they leave behind?

I honestly don't care about sudo. I don't use it myself, but then again, I haven't grown up using it either, so I'm unlikely to.

[*]Is it because Ubuntu is a very popular distribution?

Popularity shmopularity. I wouldn't call Ubuntu the Paris Hilton of the Linux world, because that would be disingenuous, however, it does seem to attract the same sort of celebrity worship. For the life of me, I can't see why.

I don't use Ubuntu, but I do recommend it to GNU/Linux newbies because
  • they can get answers to common questions very quickly on Ubuntu Forums (is this a bug or a feature?)

Therein lies the crux eh?

  • they get a clean, working desktop right after installation

  • While that may be a good thing - at first - it doesn't do much to sustain a community that's worked hard together for the better part of two decades now. It seems to sustain the "GIMME GIMME GIMME NOW NOW NOW" sort of attitude.

  • they can install PDF editor and NTFS-3G without having to deal with Backports or Lenny (makes my life easier).

  • Working for something isn't such a bad thing.
    An example for you: My 10 year old nephew has wanted a snowmobile for quite some time. His dad decided that rather than get him a shiny new one, he was going to get him a beater and teach him how to make it work. He did just that, and now, together, they've turned that beater into a better sled than the shiny new one was. And the boy can now fix the thing in the middle of a blinding snowstorm out in a corn field instead of having to limp it back to the garage, like he'd have to do with the shiny new one, the new one being under warrantee and him without the mechanical knowledge he's absorbed building up the beater. Which do you think the boy appreciates more?

    I guess what I'm getting at is that I find that distros like Ubuntu seem to breed laziness.
    That's never good for a community.

    Now get off my lawn!

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    Postby llivv » 2007-11-18 16:03

    edoviak wrote: so let me just ask why both "Real" Debian Users and "Fake" Debian Users feel the need to beat up on poor Ubuntu.
    because CocoAUS makes it so easy and so much fun :wink:
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    Postby Issyer » 2007-11-18 16:50

    As Lavene mentioned already
    Lavene wrote:a user should not need to interact with the OS it self

    Debian is an OS.
    An OS runs by itself.
    There's no way for a user to run an OS.
    A user's prerogative is to run applications only.


    Rickh, confused by Martin Krafft, used wrong definitions. Many people disagreed, but almost nobody noticed that.
    You can't say "Real Debian User". It's nonsense.
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    Postby Telemachus » 2007-11-18 16:58

    Issyer wrote:Debian is an OS.
    An OS runs by itself.
    There's no way for a user to run an OS.
    A user's prerogative is to run applications only.

    Rickh, confused by Martin Krafft, used wrong definitions. Many people disagreed, but almost nobody noticed that.
    You can't say "Real Debian User". It's nonsense.

    That's silly and untrue. I suppose that you can argue that you don't "use" an OS the way you "use" a program, but I certainly can (and do) interact with the OS in various ways. The OS is, in a sense, a series of choices about how various programs and libraries and scripts fit together. Debian has default choices - for example, that runlevels 2-5 are identical, and when I have Debian on a machine, I can (and do) change those choices. On this box, runlevel 5 has no X, while 2-4 do. There are hundreds of examples like this of ways that users deal with their OS. You have a point I guess that you can't open an OS directly the way that you open or start a program, but it's just verbal quibbling to say that users can only run applications. Users can (and do) also change and adjust the OS settings in nearly infinite ways.
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    Postby Issyer » 2007-11-18 17:27

    Telemachus wrote:That's silly and untrue. I suppose that you can argue that you don't "use" an OS the way you "use" a program, but I certainly can (and do) interact with the OS in various ways. The OS is, in a sense, a series of choices about how various programs and libraries and scripts fit together. Debian has default choices - for example, that runlevels 2-5 are identical, and when I have Debian on a machine, I can (and do) change those choices. On this box, runlevel 5 has no X, while 2-4 do. There are hundreds of examples like this of ways that users deal with their OS. You have a point I guess that you can't open an OS directly the way that you open or start a program, but it's just verbal quibbling to say that users can only run applications. Users can (and do) also change and adjust the OS settings in nearly infinite ways.

    You can do all that as far as it is allowed by the developers. If someone runs Windows in the Safe Mode, does it mean that he/she runs the OS? It won't even occur to someone to say it.
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    Postby Telemachus » 2007-11-18 18:02

    Issyer wrote:You can do all that as far as it is allowed by the developers.

    First, that isn't quite true. Even on "locked" systems such as Windows or Mac, people always find a way to change things. There's really no way to prevent a user from opening up an OS, if the user is determined enough. Second, it doesn't really affect this discussion, since we are talking about Linux operating systems which are all open to change by their users (so far as I know). Your claim that "users only can use programs" is just plain false if you apply it Debian or any other Linux system I know. (And that is what we are talking about, no?)
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    Postby Issyer » 2007-11-18 18:08

    Telemachus wrote:
    Issyer wrote:You can do all that as far as it is allowed by the developers.

    First, that isn't quite true. Even on "locked" systems such as Windows or Mac, people always find a way to change things. There's really no way to prevent a user from opening up an OS, if the user is determined enough. Second, it doesn't really affect this discussion, since we are talking about Linux operating systems which are all open to change by their users (so far as I know). Your claim that "users only can use programs" is just plain false if you apply it Debian or any other Linux system I know. (And that is what we are talking about, no?)

    OK, you substitute one definition with another. Of course, you can interact with Debian as an OS as much as you like, since it is an open source OS. But that is another story. Let's start a new topic then titled "What is a "Real" Debian Developer". I bet they have a lot to tell.
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