Trouble in the land of sidux

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Re: Trouble in the land of sidux

Postby h2 » 2010-09-13 16:34

julian516, glad to see you like the manual, I created that with bluewater behind the scenes during some heavy months of planning and coding.

I did it on one condition, which he always respected: that my name be kept out of it, that I wouldn't ever have to deal with or interact with the core devs, none of whom actually know how to do HTML/CSS coding though a few think they do. It was only with some pretty major behind the scenes pressure that I was able to get it to evolve to its current format, the devs if left to their own preferences would have ruined it totally.

Bluewater has gone on to add more features since I left the project, but in the end I had to somewhat forcefully tell him I refused to help him anymore since I simply could not stand to help or deal with sidux on any level.

But it still cracks me up that they are so proud of that manual, yet can't stand me, so I thought what finer time to rub some nice salt in that old wound. Bluewater to his credit did and continues I supposed to do a really good job editing it, though last I checked the navigation was no longer clear and intuitive, ie, you had to know that many items were there to find them. But I don't look anymore.

Re their secret dev process, where basically one or two core guys set all policy without any public discussion or input, no published dev communications, and a VERY nasty secret dev irc channel, where I used to sit watching them insult various people before I got sick of it and stopped wasting my time tracking it, proves to me that the words 'free' and 'open' have little meaning if you yourself do not engage in free and open development processes. The secrecy and boys private club mentality, coupled with the autocratic character of the devs, is all you need to know why everything around them blows up consistently, why individual users who try to work with them all leave, or are kicked out, and I'm sure accounts for why the ev got sick of them too. There's a long list now of damaged goods these guys have left behind them, at least one if you do some research you'll find has a very bad history re foss projects, today eV is simply the latest in a constant stream of such events. If you can't see this pattern you probably haven't followed them very long. Problems and virtues tend to flow down from the top, and this group is no different, when it was good and growing, the leader was clear and open, when it degenerated the leader had too.

They picked the right logo, that's for sure, these guys I wouldn't trust with anything, or anyone, at least not until they kick out the core problem guys, the ones who get off on their authoritarian garbage and secrecy and non-openness so heavily.

Happily their new name is so absurd that it will never roll off the tongue, and signals broadly that this is for geeks only, non others need apply.

But we learn and go on, now I know the warning signs, never deal with people who talk about freedom and openness but who never practice what they preach beyond following the technical rules for gpl software and licensing.

Sidux always had in the past one good quality, its users, which is why I decided to keep supporting them, and why most of them from what I can see still use my stuff, which I find amusing. And yes, I'll put in support for this recent change when I get time to do it, why not?

But in the process, by the way, I'll remove a lot of legacy cruft that makes especially smxi a bit too focused on sidux. As always, for those who hate or dislike or find stupid the smxi concept, that's great, it's why it's not written for you. I like the fundamental notion as outlined clearly by RMS that the end goal of all software freedom is not imposing one's values on end users, but rather the freedom of the end user to do whatever they want with their own systems. i have always respected this value and freedom, and will continue to respect it.

By the way, I also agree with a lot of the thread commentators about the weird rules and decisions these guys make, just because they can. The lack of nano for example was brought up over and over, but always ignored. I tested aptitude, and though I'm not a big aptitude fan, I've switched all my systems to use it because I think it's a better way to run sid if you're a power user type. Another ex siduxer, who now makes the liquorix kernel (because the sidux guys consistently hassled and discouraged him from learning and exploring and sharing), for example has always upgraded in X, something I think is not really safe for regular users, but is clearly totally fine for power users who understand that when core components upgrade you have to restart X, at least in sid/testing. or close apps that are upgrading, and so on. A bit too much to assume safe for regular users, but by no means requiring hard and fast rules.

And I certainly don't install ats or whatever now, it's either debian or ubuntu depending on what the people want or need, and one or another Debian for my own use, I run etch, lenny, testing, and sid on various machines depending on what I want from them.

In my own work, I've tried to add in as much support for as many methods as I can support sanely, with the end goal of always respecting the true freedom 0: the freedom of the user to do what they want with their system.
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Re: Trouble in the land of sidux

Postby nadir » 2010-09-13 18:30

I just read h2's post, and i like it a lot.
It is a lot of words, but it is worth reading them.

I did not ever follow the sidux-project for longer than a short time, but whenever i do i got a strong feeling that it is the way he describes it. So i stop using it or thinking about it immediately. It makes me feel sad and angry.
That would be my main problem (besides the complete absence of being friendly):
...proves to me that the words 'free' and 'open' have little meaning if you yourself do not engage in free and open development processes.
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Re: Trouble in the land of sidux

Postby julian516 » 2010-09-13 20:02

Exactly why h2's scripts run on all of my systems. These really are excellent tools. Perhaps because I learned using sidux I just routinely use the cli to update and upgrade. I trust this process a good bit more than automated "update centers", which I think of as nags. In my experience if I decline a particular update the "center" then nags me about it until I accept the pointless update. There is just no need for such convenience, if such it is.

h2 certainly knows more about the sidux terrain than most of us do. I agree with nadir, any reader wanting to explore it would be advised to read h2's post carefully.
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Re: Trouble in the land of sidux

Postby Jackiebrown » 2010-09-14 02:19

craigevil wrote:Look at distrowatch.org where sidux has been falling for over a year now. Ever since all the crap happened in the irc channel.


Why you may ask is it still falling?
1) A primarily German speaking irc channel, yes you can get help in English but who is even going to try when you join #sidux all you ever see is people using German.
2) One of the most unhelpful and rude forums of any distro. Anything the devs/moderators do not agree with either gets censored or moved to the read only archives. After the OP gets flamed by all the fanboys and devs.
3) The lack of multimedia support on the forums from day one due to the unwise decision to host the forum on a German server.
sidux is the only distro's forum I have ever seen where any discussion regarding the dmm repo or mplayer is censored. Need to play a dvd too bad, can't play mp3s or avis too bad, burn a disk use a script GUIs are lame.
4) sidux was supposed to be a community distro, but it never was the devs never discuss and issues they just do things their way
totally ignoring what people want
5) sidux is Debian, what a load of BS, no aptitude, no Synaptic, no Gnome, no nano by default, there are many many differences between the way the sidux devs want ppl to do things and the way Debian does them. Need a separate /home when you install? Nope can't do.
God forbid you install any package that does not come with sidux by default.

The use of Greek gods as version names is all well and good but using the Greek letters to spell them especially on the wallpaper is just plain annoying.

This from the guy who trolled me out of nowhere in the linuxquestion forums

craigevil wrote:How does sidux not support pretty much anything thats in Debian?

Jackiebrown spouting crap on the sidux forums isnt enough? We get it you do not like sidux.

...

many people use gnome, e17, lxde any lots of other desktops/wm in sidux, just because there isn't a separate installer for a silly de/wm doesn't mean they don't support them.

because I said
JackieBrown wrote:
craigevil wrote:Actually sidux rocks. Does Debian have the 2.6.27 kernel?


I'm pretty sure the freeze would effect a new kernel going into Debian right now.

You can't compare like this. Does sidux support the 100 gnome packages or the enlightenment one? Does sidux support 3 branches and 12 archs (not including old-stable and experimental?)

I'm not knocking sidux, just comparisons like that are meaningless.

By that standard, Ubuntu is better than Debian since they have the 2.6.27 kernel in intriped and better than sidux because it supports more packages.
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Re: Trouble in the land of sidux

Postby craigevil » 2010-09-14 10:21

Wow jackieBrown can use the quote function.

Seriously, most people know at one time I was a big sidux fanboy. But between the crap that went on in the irc channel last year, and the continuing rudeness and closed minded attitude in the sidux forum I gave up.

I also realized Debian by itself was more stable and the Debian kernel is much more stable than the slh kernel in sidux.
sidux/aptosid or whatever it is called now; is a quick way to install sid.
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Re: Trouble in the land of sidux

Postby Jackiebrown » 2010-09-15 01:42

craigevil wrote:Wow jackieBrown can use the quote function.
I have to use the preview function alot or I mess it up :lol:
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Re: Trouble in the land of sidux

Postby geneven » 2010-09-16 19:06

I am still using Sidux -- I heard that you learned about a name change when doing a dist-upgrade or something when running SMXI, but I did an SMXI upgrade today and saw nothing about a name change.

I think that Sidux + SMXI is more user-friendly than Debian, and it also keeps you on the cutting edge because of course it is using the riskiest version of Debian.

I'm going to keep using Sidux + SMXI as long as it's possible.

I agree that the Sidux folks are mostly unfriendly, so I avoid their forums. On the other hand, Sidux itself has been very good for me. I can appreciate to some extent the humor in their going under because of disagreement, because the essence of the Sidux crew has always seemed to be disagreement. Who lives by the sword, dies by it.
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Re: Trouble in the land of sidux

Postby Absent Minded » 2010-09-16 21:00

While I understand one having animosity for another member here because of something said on another forum, I don't feel it is really appropriate to drag that baggage from forum to forum. We have enough stuff that we deal with here without it.

Having said that, it is my personal perspective that I should behave respectably on other forums as some know that I am a moderator here and it could reflect poorly on this forum in a round-a-bout way should I get out of line elsewhere. Just for clarity, I am not saying anything about others, just stating a personal perspective on things as I feel I have a duty to others here and Debian it's self (this forum to my knowledge is hosted on one of Debian's own servers) to not portray this forum or it's members in a negative light. I am, after all a representative of this forum even when not acting in that capacity elsewhere.

As I stated, this is just my personal take on things and not anything "official" being stated as a stance or position of this forum or it's staff.

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Re: Trouble in the land of sidux

Postby snowpine » 2010-09-16 21:06

I was not bothered in the least by what others perceived as "rudeness" on the Sidux forums, but their auto-forum-censor-bot rubbed me the wrong way. I'm a grown man and if I want to spell Sidux with a capital S that's my prerogative, dammit! :)
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Re: Trouble in the land of sidux

Postby Jackiebrown » 2010-09-16 22:12

Absent Minded wrote:While I understand one having animosity for another member here because of something said on another forum, I don't feel it is really appropriate to drag that baggage from forum to forum. We have enough stuff that we deal with here without it.

It was meant to be ironic. Sorry if I hurt Craig's feelings
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Re: Trouble in the land of sidux

Postby Absent Minded » 2010-09-17 02:33

Jackiebrown wrote:
Absent Minded wrote:While I understand one having animosity for another member here because of something said on another forum, I don't feel it is really appropriate to drag that baggage from forum to forum. We have enough stuff that we deal with here without it.

It was meant to be ironic. Sorry if I hurt Craig's feelings


I have no idea if it did or not. Apparently my misunderstanding of things though. For that I apologize. Not sure what to say except I took things wrong.
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Re: Trouble in the land of sidux

Postby h2 » 2010-09-17 05:33

geneven, you must have just missed it, I uploaded changes that run the switching routine, as long as the sidux packages do the switch right, the switch should work, but I'm not going to do any fine tuning, there are no sidux repos that are active except for one now, and that one just feeds the conversion packages to the system, so smxi just activates that one, deletes all other sidux repos, and then proceeds to the dist-upgrade.

Just heed the alert you'll see and it should go ok.

I'm downgrading aptosid support in favor of better and more clear support for debian.
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Re: Trouble in the land of sidux

Postby craigevil » 2010-09-17 06:47

No sidux/aptosid or whatever silly name they are calling it now for me. Debian all the way. I could probably even get rid of the liquorix kernel, but I like to have at least 2 kernels installed.


cat /etc/apt/sources.list
Code: Select all
#Sid
# deb http://debian.uchicago.edu/debian/ sid main contrib non-free
# deb-src http://debian.uchicago.edu/debian/ sid main contrib non-free
# deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ sid main contrib non-free
# deb-src http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ sid main contrib non-free
deb http://mirrors.kernel.org/debian/ sid main contrib non-free
deb-src http://mirrors.kernel.org/debian/ sid main contrib non-free

#Experimental
deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ experimental main contrib non-free
# deb-src http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ experimental main contrib non-free

# Testing
# deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ testing main contrib non-free
# deb-src http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ testing main contrib non-free

# Debian-multimedia.org
deb http://www.debian-multimedia.org/ unstable main non-free
# dmm mirror
# deb http://mirror.home-dn.net/debian-multimedia/ unstable main non-free

# Liquorix sources added by smxi
deb http://liquorix.net/debian/ sid main
# deb http://liquorix.net/debian/ sid main future

# Google Stable
deb http://dl.google.com/linux/deb/ stable non-free main
# Google testing repository
deb http://dl.google.com/linux/deb/ testing non-free
#google talk-plugin
deb http://dl.google.com/linux/talkplugin/deb/ stable main

# Iceweasel 4.0 beta packages for Debian http://glandium.org/blog/?p=1032
# deb http://mozilla.debian.net/packages/ ./


inxi -F
Code: Select all
System:    Host craigevil Kernel 2.6.32-5-686 i686 (32 bit) Distro Debian GNU/Linux squeeze/sid
CPU:       Single core Intel Pentium 4 (-HT-) cache 1024 KB flags (lm nx sse sse2 sse3) bmips 5585.53
           Clock Speeds: (1) 2792.767 MHz (2) 2792.767 MHz
Graphics:  Card nVidia G96 [GeForce 9400 GT] X.Org 1.7.7 Res: 1280x1024@50.0hz
           GLX Renderer GeForce 9400 GT/PCI/SSE2 GLX Version 3.3.0 NVIDIA 260.19.06 Direct Rendering Yes
Audio:     Card Intel 82801FB/FBM/FR/FW/FRW (ICH6 Family) High Definition Audio Controller driver HDA Intel BusID: 00:1b.0
           Sound: Advanced Linux Sound Architecture Version 1.0.21
Network:   Card Intel 82562ET/EZ/GT/GZ - PRO/100 VE (LOM) Ethernet Controller driver e100 v: 3.5.24-k2-NAPI at port dcc0 BusID: 03:08.0
Disks:     HDD Total Size: 160.0GB (14.8% used) 1: /dev/sda WDC_WD1600JS 160.0GB
Partition: ID:/ size: 103G used: 22G (23%) fs: ext3 ID:swap-1 size: 5.25GB used: 0.00GB (0%) fs: swap
Info:      Processes 110 Uptime 5:56 Memory 218.4/2016.5MB Runlevel 5 Client Shell inxi 1.4.15
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Re: Trouble in the land of sidux

Postby h2 » 2010-09-17 18:53

craigevil, I pretty much agree, though I like the direction damentz is going with his Liquorix kernels, he just told me for example he's going to get less experimental and focus on a bit more stability, which is nice to hear.

Personally, I use them on my Testing/Sid systems pretty much always, with maybe one debian vanilla kernel as a backup. I like the Liquorix stuff so much that smxi now offers new users the option, if they are running unstable/testing, to add Liquorix sources on the first run of smxi. I guess that's my vote of confidence, I didn't feel that until recently, but given I just updated smxi to remove a lot of legacy sidux-centric type support, I decided to go ahead and offer that to users who are interested in a bit extra performance, and more focus on the desktop than I think the Debian kernel offers. That's not a criticism of the Debian kernel, they just focus on different things.
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Re: Trouble in the land of sidux

Postby MeanDean » 2010-09-17 19:09

What can I do to witness the performance difference that the liquorix kernel provides? Is there some test, some certain usage pattern, some...thing.... that I can do that will make the difference stand out?

sorry for the OT well not really but anyway
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