What does it really mean to help someone?

[Absent Minded]

I believe most of us are here to help others regardless of our personalities so I really would like to keep this off of what is considered nice or courteous and focus on what it means to really be helpful to someone. Is it really helpful to someone to just give them an answer to something with out them having to work for it a bit?

If someone asks me to come and help them with something, I generally figure they are going to be working along side me instead of me doing all the work. There are exceptions of course, If my grandma had asked me to help her by mowing her lawn, I knew that I would be doing the work of mowing the lawn. But then there were often benifits for me afterwords. Milk and cookies, a sandwich and some good conversation as well.

Recently, I answered a post on another forum where a person was wanting help setting up SAMBA as a replacement for a Windows PDC. I gave them a bit of advice and stressed reading the SAMBA documentation as everything that had been asked about is in the documentation. Also, in order to be able to make the best decisions regarding how to set SAMBA up for their specific network needs would require extensive knowledge of SAMBA, the services it provides, what SAMBA doesn't do yet and what additional services need to be deployed to replicate the services provided by a Windows PDC. Now, I admit that reading the SAMBA documentation is a bit like sitting down with the intention of reading all the Debian documentation. It is very elaborate, extensive and for the most part well thought out and complete. Now this person thanks me and says they are reading the documentation on the SAMBA site. However, in a post or two later I start getting asked to give them specific settings to put in to their SAMBA config that should have been getting answered by the first few chapters of the documentation they claimed to be reading... I explain that I don't know what all they need for services on their network and that they are the ones who need to read the documentation to determine how to implement things for their network. Again I point them back to the documentation that helps them evaluate this and gives them the needed settings to do so. Mind you, this is all covered in the first few chapters of the documentation that has now supposedly been being read for 3 days. Now I would like to note here that I am not being asked questions about how to make sense of the documentation. Today I sign in and there is more of the same type of thing.. please give me xyz settings and there is a list of 5 things that all require some knowledge of their network that I don't have but the first 3 questions are all covered in the first few chapters of the setup instructions that I had just given them a link to the day before. At this point I am getting kind of irritated and wishing I had not made my first post to their thread. I had told them though in that very first post that I may not have been the best person for them to get help from though based on how they worded things in their first post. I had also mentioned to them that I don't do other peoples home work for them. But, being the person I am, I had decided to try and help a bit anyway... I think I should have went with my gut instinct on that one and headed for the hills. Anyway, I kind of went off on them a bit for expecting me to do all their homework for them. According to them I am to understand that they are busy and can't read all the documentation as they have 300 users to administrate, a life to live after work and after all, my time must not be as important as theirs as I am wasting it helping people on some forum some place. Okay, I admit that some of that statement was what I read between the lines... Still, I am expected to give them all the correct configuration options that they can just paste into their SAMBA config file, give them a script to import all their windows user accounts and passwords, explain how to automate replicating the user settings and data on to the SAMBA server, etc, etc.. The details of which all should have been apparent to them had they even read the first 5 chapters and looked at the how-tos I gave them a link to. I mean, I would have had to write out a complete how-to for each thing on the forum. Now this person has been thanking me for the help I have given but it doesn't seem really like they are looking at anything but instead what me to do all the configuring for them. When does helping someone become "doing it for them" instead? If I am doing all the research and all the programming (even though remotely) shouldn't I be getting paid for doing their work?

Sorry, a bit of a rant there. I can't say as I have had the best day today and then to come home and see that this guy just wants me to do all his work for him really jerked my chain.

Anyway, if someone is not actually "learning" how to configure things is it really helping them? If one just hands out the result of research they had to do themselves, isn't it just teaching others they can be lazy and have someone else keep doing their work for them? Does giving someone the final answer to the puzzle with out also teaching the reason for the answer really benefit that person in the long run?

[deltaflyer]

Know how you feel about it, i had a similar situation on another forum,whereby after all the help i gave, it felt as if the other person wanted me to do everything for them. This was getting to be a regular thing,people asking for help & me doing all the work, once i was asked to remotely access a p.c. to do all the necessary work !!! needless to say, i didn't & told them i was only here to help them resolve the problem,not do all the work. Subsequently,i started to receive nasty p.m.'s from some of them,so i stopped helping & quit the forum as i was getting fed up with it.after a few months peace & quiet, i joined Debian forums & only help where i can & let the questioner do the research

[dilberts_left_nut]

Sounds very much like a SAMBA thread on this forum...

Maybe it says something about the people setting up SAMBA.

Boss says "I'm not paying for more CAL's, set us up one of them free servers."
Windows IT droid says "Yes sir", then discovers that pointing and clicking till it works ain't gonna cut it, and heads to the forums for someone to do it for him (preferrably in time to get to the pub before Rochelle from accounts gets pissed and goes home with someone else).

The SAMBA docs are good and it's easy to find specific answers without reading the lot, but you need a bit of a clue about windows networking, or else you should read the lot.

Posting links to good info, maybe with a bit of general info in the post, is good.
If it's obvious from the reply that they haven't read the info, then I generally leave them to it.

I don't mind giving simple specific answers to basic questions where I can, I'm grateful to people who have done the same for me.
I'm not going to go to any more effort than the poster though.

[Absent Minded]

I had a bit more compassion on the thread I helped with recently here. I guess I feel a bit for the fella that is starting at near ground zero but is at least willing to read even if there are some questions that I just give consolation answers to. Despite my bit of going off on a rant, my question is a bit of a serious one to me. I want to actually be of real help to people as I sure most others here do to. While I think it is one thing to be helping some troubleshoot as they go threw their setup, it feels considerably different to me to be being asked for the answers before an attempt is even made to use the knowledge they should have been able to glean from the documentation.

When I started using computers the OS and all the software one wanted was purchased separately from the actual hardware. I had to read to learn how to set things up. The documentation was pretty extensive unlike today where you buy a computer and if you get anything it is just a thin little pamphlet of about 30 pages. The stack of books that came with my original hardware and software stands about 3 feet high when stacked. That was just books on the hardware and about 4 or 5 programs and the OS documentation books. If I wanted support I had better of read the pertinent parts of those manuals dealing with my problem before hand as calling the non-toll free support line really ticked the technician off on the other end if I couldn't explain what I had already tried from the solutions given in the manuals and I needed to be able to talk the lingo as well to understand the answer I was given. But back then, support was a feature of a product and not how the company tried to make their living.

[MALsPa]

Posting links to good info, maybe with a bit of general info in the post, is good.
If it's obvious from the reply that they haven't read the info, then I generally leave them to it.

I don't mind giving simple specific answers to basic questions where I can, I'm grateful to people who have done the same for me.
I'm not going to go to any more effort than the poster though.

That's pretty much how I feel.

Well, if I feel like providing a specific answer, and going into detail, I don't necessarily think that's not being helpful. But I think it's also important to provide links, or to at least some explanation of how a user can find the answer on their own. Some people just want a quick answer and don't want to read anything, but it's helped me a lot when someone told me where to look, and/or how to look, for answers.

One of my favorite math instructors liked to stress that the important thing about teaching was not showing students how to do something, but helping them to "learn how to learn."

[kedaha]

What does it mean to really help someone? Depends on the person who is asking for help.
Solving problems oneself, even if it takes hours or days, is the best way to learn whereas asking others to solve them is just a short cut. But if it's a tough problem then asking for help is a good idea and the replies will be of use to others too but if they haven't even consulted the documentation they should be reminded to. The best way to help them, IMO is by pointing them in the right direction.
On the other hand there are those who genuinely need help; I’ve mentioned elsewhere on these forums that I've helped my friends and relatives by installing Debian Stable for general usage since they would have been unable to have done it themselves. And often such people have old machines and are unable to afford a new computer and accompanying proprietary software.
Regards

[Robin T Cox]

Give a man a fish and you'll feed him for a day.

Give a man a fishing rod, and you'll enable him to make a complete ass of himself.

- Anon.

[vicshrike]

Give a man a fish and you'll feed him for a day.

Give a man a fishing rod, and you'll enable him to make a complete ass of himself.

- Anon.

[llivv]

.

[saulgoode]

Anyway, if someone is not actually "learning" how to configure things is it really helping them? If one just hands out the result of research they had to do themselves, isn't it just teaching others they can be lazy and have someone else keep doing their work for them? Does giving someone the final answer to the puzzle with out also teaching the reason for the answer really benefit that person in the long run?

I could provide you with the answers to all of these questions, but then you wouldn't learn them.

[nadir]

a) serious answer:
Usually the <help> thing was somehow like this:
adult -> child
or:
teacher -> child

Problem is: teacher never had no proof what he says would be right (and, in the long run, it often was and is just plain wrong).
Best teachers are:
child <-> teacher ( or: teacher <-> child . doesn't matter, it is an equation)


That is my thought about it. In real life i don't care for it at all. What would be the best help for someone? It is none of my business (if he asks for a fish he will either get a fish or don't get one. He won't get a fishing rod. If he asks for a fishing rod... you got the idea.
Never no-one talks about what was the best for the fish ... Why? Well, he doesn't ask anything, hence he is free from such treatment).

-------------------------------
b)wtf-answer (me wants some pm too)
Folks tell me "you can't speak that way to children". Or: "they are not able to understand".
Friend of mine (he was 5 at the time being) asked me what i think of God. I said: "i don't know at all. I can tell you what kant says, and at this very moment i think that might be right. You wanna hear it, yes or no?". He says " yup, i wanna hear". I started a long rant.
He did never ask again. Not cause of a shock, cause he knew i have given him the best answer i was able to. He asked me other stuff. The both of us had a heck lot of fun (with sense and non-sense, games and work, stuff like that. the world around: a riddle. some questions too. crazy dude was around us (: none and) all the time ... thus spoke a bit too. About silence ... whispering... blissful islands ... We both miss him now.)

[MALsPa]

Best teachers are:
child <-> teacher ( or: teacher <-> child . doesn't matter, it is an equation)

Yep! That's the approach I took with my son! Tried to speak with him person-to-person, not to him adult-to-child. The learning definitely went both ways.

[llivv]

.

[emariz]

What does it really mean to help someone? Providing her your best answer and recommending her relevant references. And what if she were lazy? Then create a Gerber forum for her.

[MeanDean]

Is it really 'help' when you assist someone who insists on remaining clueless and not helping themselves.

Do you tie your kids shoes even when they are forty years old or do you expect them to put some effort into doing things for themselves? Should they try to help themselves and get it wrong THEN further assistance would be warranted but to help without requiring effort is simply to keep someone dependent and ignorant. If you never require them to try then aren't you at fault for keeping them ignorant. How are they to 'grow' if the opportunity is never provided?

Not to mention all these clueless users running about helping other clueless users by parroting stuff they have heard. That doesn't help anyone at all. Seriously, it doesn't help the person needing help or the person offering assistance. To talk about stuff without thinking about it and trying to figure it out is worthless. To try to understand and make a mistake is one thing, to not bother trying to understand is worthless to everyone and defeats the free/open nature of the software. To not bother trying to understand sounds more like closed/non-free software where you cannot possibly understand it.

[MeanDean]

Not to mention all these clueless users running about helping other clueless users by parroting stuff they have heard. That doesn't help anyone at all. Seriously, it doesn't help the person needing help or the person offering assistance. To talk about stuff without thinking about it and trying to figure it out is worthless. To try to understand and make a mistake is one thing, to not bother trying to understand is worthless to everyone and defeats the free/open nature of the software. To not bother trying to understand sounds more like closed/non-free software where you cannot possibly understand it.

Having a forum (or a section) where it is
- considered mean to tell someone they need to help themselves
- wrong to request someone backup their statement
- a personal attack to say something is stupid
is just as worthless.

[nadir]

...
Do you tie your kids shoes even when they are forty years old or do you expect them to put some effort into doing things for themselves? Should they try to help themselves and get it wrong THEN further assistance would be warranted but to help without requiring effort is simply to keep someone dependent and ignorant. If you never require them to try then aren't you at fault for keeping them ignorant. How are they to 'grow' if the opportunity is never provided?
...

Like said: it is none of my business. If someone wants to stay dependent and ignorant: so shall it be. I am not able to change it
(by some kind of super-teaching-model). Everyone failed with that, so far. Waste of time.
I am busy with finding an answer. If i am busy with finding the best way to teach, then i will fail finding the answer.
for all you parents, teachers and preachers: a minor threat

Did you say i am clueless?

[MeanDean]

I feel it is my responsibility to help others grow....as it is others responsibility to help me....otherwise what are we besides useless fluff

[nadir]

I feel it is my responsibility to help others grow....as it is others responsibility to help me....otherwise what are we besides useless fluff

Well: you do that, and -i think- you know it. If not, you know it now.

Thing is: you can't force someone to free himself (to grow). Best thing, in my eyes, is to do it by oneself. Either others will follow or they won't. If i am useless, i am useless. I don't care. I want joy, not being useful.

"Make sure to be it and you sure will have got influence on others"

--------------------
The other topic you speak of (sections or forums where one is asked to ...) is a different question. I agree with what you say.

[traveler]

There's a bit of a flame war on the distrowatch comments section about this topic now. It's pretty easy to guess who the people are who want everything served to them on a silver platter. I lost 10 IQ points reading through that crap, I need to stop.