I have entitled this thread the rusty wheel thread because that's what this is, a rusty wheel looking for grease. The more rust the wheel gets, the more it will squeek and hopefully, the more grease it will get. I will start this thread with my biggest linux beef and hopefully more will follow and the end result will either be a better operating system, or many rusty siezed wheels.
On occassion, I like to scroll through the synaptic list to see what software is available, especially games, or I'll do some googling and see if there's anything new. There have been many times when I've spent several hours configuring, making and make installing, as well as apt-getting or synaptizing a program that I found, only to discover that I have no clue as to how I might possibly start the program I just installed. At least when I configure something from a tarball and sometimes when I apt-get, I have an opportunity to see where the files were installed but many times I type in the title of the program as I cross my fingers and hope that the start command is the same as the program title but too many times this is not the case. This is a blatant example of lazy programming. Why bother writing the code if you aren't going to give anyone a clue as to how to use your program??? Users shouldn't have to spend several hours googling for the start command of your program. If you can write a brief description you can also include a brief command listing!
I think I'll even go out on a limb and add a few examples of stuff I've installed but will probably uninstall because it won't start.
I Have No Tomatoes. - Nope, can't say that I do.
Allegro-Demo - Guess I won't be getting the full version anytime soon.
There are more, you may yet encounter the rusty wheel of doom but these are all I can think of at the moment. BTW, if you do happen to know how to start these programs please add some grease to the axle of my rusty cart. If there is a program that you've installed but can't get started, add your rusty wheel here in the hopes that your axle gets greased as well. Yah I know, support isn't supposed to be requested here, so we'll just call it grease. I'm looking for some grease.
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Rusty wheel thread
Some grease
Okay, I learned something new. It still reinforces what I said earlier, how hard would it be to add a comment in a readme? In any case the provided command will certainly become part of the install process now that I know it.
I have already started to put together a small text file for all us noobs, of various commands that I have had to learn to make linux a little easier to use. This one will be added with thanks to ajdlinux.
I have already started to put together a small text file for all us noobs, of various commands that I have had to learn to make linux a little easier to use. This one will be added with thanks to ajdlinux.
Cancel or Allow?
Is that the new "Yes, No, or All"?
Is that the new "Yes, No, or All"?
little more grease
AH, I made an assumption based on your assumption and it led to nowhere.
You assumed that the program I was looking for was installed in /bin ( I didn't know what the grep /bin was for, and I made the assumpition that there was info in /bin about all installed programs )( Laugh if you want but ignorance is bliss! )
I also assumed that 'dpkg -L <package> | grep /bin' didn't give me an output because something wasn't installed right. With a lot of trial and error, I discovered the correct command should have been 'dpkg -L <package>' The grep /bin doesn't help at all unless the program is actually installed in /bin. In any case, the corrections have been made to commands.txt. So I guess that sort of effectively kills this thread, but I hope the point goes out to the programmers who this topic was aimed at and everyone who didn't know how to start those elusive programs now does.
You assumed that the program I was looking for was installed in /bin ( I didn't know what the grep /bin was for, and I made the assumpition that there was info in /bin about all installed programs )( Laugh if you want but ignorance is bliss! )
I also assumed that 'dpkg -L <package> | grep /bin' didn't give me an output because something wasn't installed right. With a lot of trial and error, I discovered the correct command should have been 'dpkg -L <package>' The grep /bin doesn't help at all unless the program is actually installed in /bin. In any case, the corrections have been made to commands.txt. So I guess that sort of effectively kills this thread, but I hope the point goes out to the programmers who this topic was aimed at and everyone who didn't know how to start those elusive programs now does.
Cancel or Allow?
Is that the new "Yes, No, or All"?
Is that the new "Yes, No, or All"?
dUH
Sorry Harold, I was in the middle of doing research and typing a response when you posted your reply. I think what was posted really points out the need for a little bit of intelligence on the programmer side of things. Program start commands should be constant and consistant and if not, a small note wouldn't hurt.
Cancel or Allow?
Is that the new "Yes, No, or All"?
Is that the new "Yes, No, or All"?
More rust
I decided to leave this for a while to do some research and guess what, I still managed to install some programs that I can't start. dpkg -L wasn't able to find them and even googling for the start command didn't yield any results. The bottom line is a simple note in the program description isn't going to hurt.
BTW: I read somewhere that programmers don't like to include comments in their code, they feel that if the program was difficult to write, it should be difficult to understand. I guess instructions would fall under that category also?
BTW: I read somewhere that programmers don't like to include comments in their code, they feel that if the program was difficult to write, it should be difficult to understand. I guess instructions would fall under that category also?
Hi, i have never installed a game app. 
But when i installed any package be it thru apt-get or from a tarball (i use build-essential and checkinstall), i do afterwards:
$ update-menus
# updatedb
then i find them with
$ locate <name of package>
as for how to use it, i do google, write to forums, or the IRC. I don't know if i'm really understanding your complaint. I do have a lot of those, but i have resigned myself that there are very bad geeks and very bad users. There is no way to win.
My main complaint is the bloatness of these new apps, how slow they are, and how prone they are to bugs.
But when i installed any package be it thru apt-get or from a tarball (i use build-essential and checkinstall), i do afterwards:
$ update-menus
# updatedb
then i find them with
$ locate <name of package>
as for how to use it, i do google, write to forums, or the IRC. I don't know if i'm really understanding your complaint. I do have a lot of those, but i have resigned myself that there are very bad geeks and very bad users. There is no way to win.
My main complaint is the bloatness of these new apps, how slow they are, and how prone they are to bugs.
Devuan Jessie - IceWM - vimperator - no DM
KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid
KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid
Re: More rust
There are some programs which are actually modules for Perl or Python or things like that - which packages were they?ethyrdude wrote:I decided to leave this for a while to do some research and guess what, I still managed to install some programs that I can't start. dpkg -L wasn't able to find them and even googling for the start command didn't yield any results. The bottom line is a simple note in the program description isn't going to hurt.
BTW: I read somewhere that programmers don't like to include comments in their code, they feel that if the program was difficult to write, it should be difficult to understand. I guess instructions would fall under that category also?
No these aren't anything related to python or perl, anything that the system needs I let the computer worry about finding them. If it needs a sym-link, I can do that but these things are usually included in the README. The names of the programs that I 'lost' escape me at the moment, that happens occassionally too, yes I'll admit I sometimes suck as a user, I only know that I installed a couple of games but I couldn't figure out their start commands, did my usual search and then decided to leave it until later.
BTW for the curious and helpful, here is my strategy for finding 'lost' programs, if anyone can add to this list, this may help me and other users with the same problem.
While installing a program with synaptic, it sometimes pays to watch the screen that opens when the program is getting installed, that screen is there for a reason.
Read the READMES, they are also there for a reason and not all programmers are bad.
When using apt-get or dpkg, you have the benefit of a console to show where the stuff is going, this can be helpful too, I find that dpkg -L without the grep will give you all locations including those for the all important documentation.
If you have the option of installing something in your home folder, create one for programs and install them there.
Check the menus for new additions, very rarily, something actually adds itself in.
After installing, and I'm not sure where the executable went, I type in the name of the program in console as opposed to the run command, this way I get error messages if there is a problem.
Use the internet, google, forums, program web page - somebody must have gotten the program running.
Ask the owner of the program ( Nicely and politely!! ). He or she made it, if you can't start it, even if the solution is obvious (according to them) it wasn't obvious enough for you. If they have an attitude about being asked, say fine, thank you very much and uninstall/delete the program, it's not worth your while.
That's what I plan to do from now on if I can't get something to run, if I annoy any programmers doing this, tough! I am a user and if it wasn't for us users, we wouldn't need programmers.
I refuse to state RTFM because in many cases there is no GDFM or if there is, the start command for the program is conveniently left out.
BTW for the curious and helpful, here is my strategy for finding 'lost' programs, if anyone can add to this list, this may help me and other users with the same problem.
While installing a program with synaptic, it sometimes pays to watch the screen that opens when the program is getting installed, that screen is there for a reason.
Read the READMES, they are also there for a reason and not all programmers are bad.
When using apt-get or dpkg, you have the benefit of a console to show where the stuff is going, this can be helpful too, I find that dpkg -L without the grep will give you all locations including those for the all important documentation.
If you have the option of installing something in your home folder, create one for programs and install them there.
Check the menus for new additions, very rarily, something actually adds itself in.
After installing, and I'm not sure where the executable went, I type in the name of the program in console as opposed to the run command, this way I get error messages if there is a problem.
Use the internet, google, forums, program web page - somebody must have gotten the program running.
Ask the owner of the program ( Nicely and politely!! ). He or she made it, if you can't start it, even if the solution is obvious (according to them) it wasn't obvious enough for you. If they have an attitude about being asked, say fine, thank you very much and uninstall/delete the program, it's not worth your while.
That's what I plan to do from now on if I can't get something to run, if I annoy any programmers doing this, tough! I am a user and if it wasn't for us users, we wouldn't need programmers.
I refuse to state RTFM because in many cases there is no GDFM or if there is, the start command for the program is conveniently left out.
ethyrdude, I'm with you on this one. I have given up on countless programs because I could never find them after installing. They seem to go into cyberspace. Yes, one would assume that the readme would have the start instruction, but many don't.
As an alternative, one would think that the designer would use a start name identical, or at least similar, to the name of the file downloaded. Frequently, the startup instruction is a total mystery.
As an alternative, one would think that the designer would use a start name identical, or at least similar, to the name of the file downloaded. Frequently, the startup instruction is a total mystery.
Bulkley, I think you need to put it the other way around: you would assume the package maintainer would use the same package name as the program. Now of course there are situations where this simply cannot be done (packages with more than one program (e.g imagemagick)), but for the majority of packages this is already the case. There are a few that aren't and I would suggest filing bugs against them.
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DeanLinkous
- Posts: 1570
- Joined: 2006-06-04 15:28
I hear you Lou - about the bloated new programs, something gets made and it works and then people start to add features to it trying to make it more multifunctional and it's almost as if the origianl purpose was forgotten.
I'd like to thank everyone who has commented so far, there has certainly been no shortage of good advice.
I'd like to thank everyone who has commented so far, there has certainly been no shortage of good advice.
I'm going to add "luxman" to the list of garbage and as soon as I figure out who made it, they are getting email too. This is supposed to be a pacman clone, but all it eats is your display!
If you try and run it in a user console you get an error:
You must be the owner of the current console to use svgalib.
and a whole bunch of other errors such as mouse not configured and other errors.
If you type luxman as a run command, nothing happens, considering what it does when you run it as sudo, this is a good thing.
If you try to start it as sudo, it corrupts your display and requires a computer restart to restore. There are a few readmes under /usr/share/docs/luxman/ but these are all compressed and will not extract so the documentation is more useless garbage. I don't even recommend attempting to run this because of the video corruption problem.
If you try and run it in a user console you get an error:
You must be the owner of the current console to use svgalib.
and a whole bunch of other errors such as mouse not configured and other errors.
If you type luxman as a run command, nothing happens, considering what it does when you run it as sudo, this is a good thing.
If you try to start it as sudo, it corrupts your display and requires a computer restart to restore. There are a few readmes under /usr/share/docs/luxman/ but these are all compressed and will not extract so the documentation is more useless garbage. I don't even recommend attempting to run this because of the video corruption problem.
A huge problem in todays open source software is the documentation, or rather the lack of documentation. It seems like developers work on their programs as long as it's fun, but when the time comes to actually release it they are way beyond bored and they simply skip the boring stuff like documentation, polish etc.
Here is a fairly typical quote from the 'documentation' of a package (this is the 'irclib' Python module):
I used to file bugreports against packages that didn't have an obvious way of making it run or that lacked documentation but it rarely made a difference so I stoped. Now I usually just purge the crap and forget about it...
I can accept that packages in Sid is not complete, but not in Stable. Documentation should be a part of every project and no project is complete without it.
Tina
Here is a fairly typical quote from the 'documentation' of a package (this is the 'irclib' Python module):
This is a very handy module but completly unusable unless you already know every detail about the IRC protocol already. Note the authors statement "Like most projects, documentation is lacking."* Like most projects, documentation is lacking...
Since I seldom use IRC anymore, I will probably not work much on the
library.
I used to file bugreports against packages that didn't have an obvious way of making it run or that lacked documentation but it rarely made a difference so I stoped. Now I usually just purge the crap and forget about it...
I can accept that packages in Sid is not complete, but not in Stable. Documentation should be a part of every project and no project is complete without it.
Tina
luxman is svgalib, svgalib REALLY sucks, X11 is FAR better.ethyrdude wrote:I'm going to add "luxman" to the list of garbage and as soon as I figure out who made it, they are getting email too. This is supposed to be a pacman clone, but all it eats is your display!
If you try and run it in a user console you get an error:
You must be the owner of the current console to use svgalib.
and a whole bunch of other errors such as mouse not configured and other errors.
If you type luxman as a run command, nothing happens, considering what it does when you run it as sudo, this is a good thing.
If you try to start it as sudo, it corrupts your display and requires a computer restart to restore. There are a few readmes under /usr/share/docs/luxman/ but these are all compressed and will not extract so the documentation is more useless garbage. I don't even recommend attempting to run this because of the video corruption problem.