"Debian kFreeBSD is a toy OS"?

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"Debian kFreeBSD is a toy OS"?

Postby Anzhr » 2011-07-16 15:30

LinuxFr.org : Perhaps Debian will be unable to switch to systemd due to the necessity to support the alternative Debian GNU/kFreeBSD system. What do you think about this situation ?

Lennart : Well, it's a loss for them, I guess.
Debian kFreeBSD is a toy OS, people really shouldn't misunderstand that. It's fine if people do toy OSes, everybody loves toys after all. But if Debian thinks it should limit its development by the dreamy interest in toy OSes of some of its developers, then this is their problem. If Debian was my project I'd try to focus on making (or keeping) it professionally relevant, and just forget about kFreeBSD, but I am not a Debian Developer.
That said, I see no reason why it shouldn't be possible to ship some BSD init system on kFreeBSD, and systemd on Debian's Linux version. A package shipping both a systemd unit file and a SysV init script is a workable solution and systemd will handle that just fine.
I think the claim that the need to support kFreeBSD on Debian was a blocker for adopting systemd by default is simply not true.


http://linuxfr.org/nodes/86687/comments/1249943
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Re: "Debian kFreeBSD is a toy OS"?

Postby ivanovnegro » 2011-07-16 15:59

I do not care so much about systemd but I cannot understand eather this hype for kFreeBSD.
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Re: "Debian kFreeBSD is a toy OS"?

Postby vbrummond » 2011-07-16 18:32

ivanovnegro wrote:I do not care so much about systemd but I cannot understand eather this hype for kFreeBSD.

I think what he suggests about offering both will be the situation. There are already seperate systemd and sysvinit packages.
http://wiki.debian.org/systemd
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Re: "Debian kFreeBSD is a toy OS"?

Postby jeffreyC » 2011-09-26 15:12

Really it is a toy OS
In Debian wireless works
In FreeBSD wireless works
It took five years to get wireless to work in Debian kFreeBSD
If anyone really cared to use it would it really have taken five years to fix ?
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Re: "Debian kFreeBSD is a toy OS"?

Postby kedaha » 2011-09-26 16:05

I don't know what to make of it since, although I tried to install the stable 64-bit version out of curiosity, the installer never kicked off: instead I just got a grub interface so I gave up. I had slightly better luck with the testing version -(debian-testing-kfreebsd-amd64-CD-1.iso) when I at least got the installer, but that failed to install as well:
Code: Select all
[!!] install the base system
Debootstrap errot
The following error occurred. The bzcat command is not available on the system. Check /var/log/syslog or see virtual console for the details.
<Go Back>                                  <Continue>

Later:
Code: Select all
[!! Install the base system
Failed to install the base system.
The base system installation into /target/ failed.
Check /var/log/syslog or see virtual console 4 for the details.
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Re: "Debian kFreeBSD is a toy OS"?

Postby vbrummond » 2011-09-26 16:51

I have successfully installed it in virtualbox and it works well. I last time I tried testing/sid of kfreebsd xorg was in limbo. I think I would use it for a server or workstation, but probably not on a portable machine like a netbook or a laptop. I guess that depends on how hardware support is though.

I might migrate my server system to it for Debian 7.
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Re: "Debian kFreeBSD is a toy OS"?

Postby prana_yama » 2011-09-26 18:07

Well, don't forget that Linux was totally "toy only OS" at some time :) and that's include absolutely every old(some not so old) Linux distro!

For me it's very understandable if somebody wants *BSD with .deb based package manager, some people say apt is the best thing after sliced bread, and it's very possible that they are right. For the GNU user land, I don't quite get it. But everybody is free to do what ever he/she wants :) Plus I do not see big advantages of systemd(upstart, or whatever).
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Re: "Debian kFreeBSD is a toy OS"?

Postby kedaha » 2011-09-27 06:51

I downloaded the debian-6.0.2.1-kfreebsd-amd64-DVD-1.iso and was able to get it running in VirtualBox - not the same thing as installing it to disk but the next best thing.
I have also been looking at Debian_GNU/kFreeBSD_why, so I think I'll install it to an external hard disk and see how it performs.
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Re: "Debian kFreeBSD is a toy OS"?

Postby orlonth » 2011-09-27 13:33

I'm convinced that kfreebsd certainly has its merit. I tried it and it's a nice system, only the lack of a nfs-server is annoying.
In the philosophy of debian it isn't that weird to support multiple kernels, debian is the universal os after all.
I hope the community continues to develop and ameliorate kfreebsd so that it becomes a true and valable alternative.

If at one point in the future linux becomes too sluggish, too unmanageable or too big (Linus himself stated that it's already an issue today, but there's no solution as of yet),.. debian won't be affected because it also runs on other kernels. We shouldn't pin down on just linux imo.
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Re: "Debian kFreeBSD is a toy OS"?

Postby prana_yama » 2011-09-27 18:35

orlonth wrote:I'm convinced that kfreebsd certainly has its merit. I tried it and it's a nice system, only the lack of a nfs-server is annoying.
In the philosophy of debian it isn't that weird to support multiple kernels, debian is the universal os after all.
I hope the community continues to develop and ameliorate kfreebsd so that it becomes a true and valable alternative.

If at one point in the future linux becomes too sluggish, too unmanageable or too big (Linus himself stated that it's already an issue today, but there's no solution as of yet),.. debian won't be affected because it also runs on other kernels. We shouldn't pin down on just linux imo.

Hmm, really good point, although for alternatives, IMHO much better would be GNU Hurd(or some new exotic/microkernel which by definition won't be "too big"), but kfreeBSD is working and Hurd installation kinda hurt :)
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Re: "Debian kFreeBSD is a toy OS"?

Postby swirling_vortex » 2011-09-28 13:50

Certainly anything new is going to be relegated as a toy, but I think over time it'll shape up to something that's a good alternative. The wiki has a few reasons for using it: http://wiki.debian.org/Debian_GNU/kFreeBSD_why
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Re: "Debian kFreeBSD is a toy OS"?

Postby kedaha » 2011-09-28 14:24

The description of Debian kFreeBSD as a toy OS born of the dreamy interest in toy OSes of some of its developers to the detriment of keeping Debian professionally relevant but fine if people do toy OSes may sway opinions but surely detracts from an objective appraisal of kFreeBSD
The interviewee, author of systemd, also well-known for his contributions to PulseAudio, says that if Debian were his project he "would focus on making (and keeping) it as a professionally relevant system, and just forget about kFreeBSD." But Debian is kernel-independent so not only the Linux kernel but also other kernels, mainly the kfreebsd and Hurd are also supported and developed under the aegis of the DFSG. Similarly, not only ALSA and PulseAudio have their place in Debian but also OSS, an integral part of BSD. Surely Debian cannot focus on certain options to the exclusion of others. While this is understandable in distros with corporate backing, obviously there are reasons why Debian cannot go along this path, and besides, only where there are alternatives is there freedom of choice.
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Re: "Debian kFreeBSD is a toy OS"?

Postby jeffreyC » 2011-10-07 22:35

PulseAudio is not one of his better ideas by any means.
But systemd is a better idea.
Faster booting may not be important for servers but for desktops and laptops it is.
Replacing legacy cruft with a more unified way helps Linux move forward.
It may be possible to port systemd to BSD, but someone else will need to do it.
The other system to replace sysvinit is Upstart which is owned by Canonical, not free.
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Re: "Debian kFreeBSD is a toy OS"?

Postby dmhdlr » 2011-10-20 05:22

Who is this systemd and how will it make Debian better?
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Re: "Debian kFreeBSD is a toy OS"?

Postby vbrummond » 2011-10-20 10:13

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd
systemd is a replacement for the System V init daemon for Linux. It is intended to provide a better framework for expressing services' dependencies, allow more work to be done in parallel at system startup, and to reduce shell overhead.


Debian already has a parallel start-up with syst-v-init though apparently systemd is better.
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