A word of "I HATE YOU"

[heminder]

I've been running Wheezy on recent hardware since the betas. I've disabled automatic updates and perform a manual upgrade whenever a new disc image is released (new beta version, release candidate, etc). No breakage so far.

[buntunub]

Strange that he "hates" Debian users because he has issues with Debian.

Yes well, because its us users (like the OP) that break sh*t.

[SibirskiiVolk]

well, since u've asked, here's a list of things that SHOULDN'T happen even in a testing system:
1- Someone forgot to edit the connman configurations so it doesn't block bluetooth devices, I started a thread and no one answered me, later I discovered that config file of connman, I purged it as I used NetworkManager and everything turned to be because of a misconfigured connman.
2- ATI Drivers and xserver gave me headache for almost 3 months, actually a fresh Wheezy DVD didn't start after installation, so I had to install Squeeze then I had to upgrade to Wheezy which is a painful process, then try to install the proprietary drivers which is something that I hated, and it failed each time, I tried the free driver and it had issues with packages missing not included in dependencies.
3- Oooooh the automatic upgrades, Gosh I hate them, each time a kid submits a package upgrade in the core packages, I have to install them on a separate machine to make sure that the system wont crash.
4- The repo is full of dead animals, I revised the repo numerous times and each time I revised it, I found dead stuff more than I find in my Grand father's attic.
5- Quality is not assured, when u have to install something that has been there for 2 or 3 years, you find the same bug that was reported by thousands of users, and no one cared about

the list goes on and on, these things shouldn't happen in a testing release, it's acceptable to find them in sid, but in order to test something, I have to get it running first.

well, leaving Debian is not an option, I am already stuck with it, which it was easier, and where would I go if I left? it's Linux distributions global issue, most of developers now are kids with QuadShit machines and no brain nor knowledge, so I guess this is why I started this thread, to beg those kids to start leaning something about QA.

[dilberts_left_nut]

Still bollocks.
(and I think you just id'd yourself...)

[AnInkedSoul]

the list goes on and on, these things shouldn't happen in a testing release, it's acceptable to find them in sid, but in order to test something, I have to get it running first.

someone in debian must not of got your memo, send it again oh great and powerful know it all who decides what is and is not acceptable

[nadir]

The title is clear ...

Actually, it is not.

The rest is not clear neither.

"nothing" and "all" and "full of" are rather vague. Just like the 10 years people are using Linux.

Anyway, i think the thread is solved since it is clear that nothing is clear. That was answer no1, above.

Why the post, pointing out the obvious? training ass-licking? Perhaps, perhaps not.

[SibirskiiVolk]

Seems like u all got defensive, this makes it clear that you know the issue and keep ignoring the fact that things are messed up
what's the purpose of this thread? may be to release my anger, may be to find someone else who thinks that Debian developers are not the same as they were, may be to criticize the current development mentality, I think these things needed to be said, My latest experience with testing is not as it used to be, testing is about getting things to work, not about ignoring issues, not about machines crashing, testing doesn't mean SID, I'd accept a machine not working with a fresh installation of SID, but I wouldn't accept that with testing, how on Earth would I test the testing release if it's not up and running? should I chroot from another installation and test it in a chrooted environment ? should I install stable and upgrade "and break the systems tens of times until the upgrade is done" ?
who cares, kids gotta push new packages to the repo, users gotta curse them, and the community gotta ignore the tears and blood of the users .
uhhhhh, kids

[edbarx]

I run testing and it works. If it doesn't work to the extent of being beyond repair, it means, there is something very wrong with your installation. Mixing incompatible major versions may be the cause, but I have no idea as the thread doesn't indicate any, apart from angry complaints.

Regarding developers, it is more practical for you or anyone, to accept the fact that developers are not paid for writing software. So, Debian users cannot expect the relationship usually found between vendors and clients. Developers work for free, they code because they may have a passion for open source, or because they support its philosophy, but they do it with full freedom. Users of their publicly available software (packages) have no innate or implied right to order them anything.

For someone using Debian for 10 years, the previous paragraph should have been unnecessary, but it seems, in this case, it is not.

[cynwulf]

well, since u've asked, here's a list of things that SHOULDN'T happen even in a testing system:[blah blah blah]

Then you need to define what you believe happens in a "testing system"? If you have been running testing for 10 years, have you ever reported a bug? Are you contributing to fixing the issues you seem so eager to complain about? If not, do not run testing.

There are only two types of people who should run testing/unstable:

1) Those who want to "test" it - i.e. report bugs and look for solutions (active participation).
2) Users who can live with the problems, accept the bugs, fix things for themselves and just get on with it (without whinging impotently on a forum).

You seem to fit neither category...

the list goes on and on

Does it... so where is it?

these things shouldn't happen in a testing release, it's acceptable to find them in sid, but in order to test something, I have to get it running first.

You need to read up on the rationale and differences between stable, testing and unstable. From your posts it's clear that you should not be running testing/unstable and I doubt you will be satisfied with stable either. You should probably not be running Debian...

well, leaving Debian is not an option,[blah blah blah]

Can you see what a ridiculous statement that is? You certainly do not have to use Debian - you can use another distro or OS which better suits your needs. Debian, as a distribution, is not for the faint hearted. It is not an out of the box, "polished", finished product like many derivatives. If you want something which is pre-configured, you need to opt for one of the Debian derivatives. If Debian were this ultra polished system which lacked nothing, then the derivatives probably wouldn't be around...

How is Egypt these days? I would have thought you'd have more to worry about than angsting over a distro...?

[llivv]

Seems like u all got defensive, this makes it clear that you know the issue and keep ignoring the fact that things are messed up
what's the purpose of this thread? may be to release my anger, may be to find someone else who thinks that Debian developers are not the same as they were, may be to criticize the current development mentality, I think these things needed to be said, My latest experience with testing is not as it used to be, testing is about getting things to work, not about ignoring issues, not about machines crashing, testing doesn't mean SID, I'd accept a machine not working with a fresh installation of SID, but I wouldn't accept that with testing, how on Earth would I test the testing release if it's not up and running? should I chroot from another installation and test it in a chrooted environment ? should I install stable and upgrade "and break the systems tens of times until the upgrade is done" ?
who cares, kids gotta push new packages to the repo, users gotta curse them, and the community gotta ignore the tears and blood of the users .
uhhhhh, kids

OK, release your anger. This post at least makes some sense in some respects.
Yes, I agree, Debian developers are not the same as they used to be.
But how far back are you going and which old school devs are you referring too?
It helps us understand where you are coming from.
Because face it, do you know of any current development that does not face
the issue you mention throughout this thread?
After all, if there were only the old timers still working on the OS
some of the new "excellent" packages might not have ever gotten included.
aka aptitude debconf etc etc etc.

True enough, there are a lot of things that could be done better,
and a lot of the "kids" are up to their eyeballs in current upstream releases
that not many really understand how they are supposed to fit into the
broader scheme of the OS.
It actually boggles my mind to think about how they keep their sanity sometimes.

[debil]

The most efficient code is 0 bit in size.

Please start living up to your sig and stop using computers altogether.

[SibirskiiVolk]

well, since u've asked, here's a list of things that SHOULDN'T happen even in a testing system:[blah blah blah]

Then you need to define what you believe happens in a "testing system"? If you have been running testing for 10 years, have you ever reported a bug? Are you contributing to fixing the issues you seem so eager to complain about? If not, do not run testing.

There are only two types of people who should run testing/unstable:

1) Those who want to "test" it - i.e. report bugs and look for solutions (active participation).
2) Users who can live with the problems, accept the bugs, fix things for themselves and just get on with it (without whinging impotently on a forum).

You seem to fit neither category...

the list goes on and on

Does it... so where is it?

these things shouldn't happen in a testing release, it's acceptable to find them in sid, but in order to test something, I have to get it running first.

You need to read up on the rationale and differences between stable, testing and unstable. From your posts it's clear that you should not be running testing/unstable and I doubt you will be satisfied with stable either. You should probably not be running Debian...

well, leaving Debian is not an option,[blah blah blah]

Can you see what a ridiculous statement that is? You certainly do not have to use Debian - you can use another distro or OS which better suits your needs. Debian, as a distribution, is not for the faint hearted. It is not an out of the box, "polished", finished product like many derivatives. If you want something which is pre-configured, you need to opt for one of the Debian derivatives. If Debian were this ultra polished system which lacked nothing, then the derivatives probably wouldn't be around...

How is Egypt these days? I would have thought you'd have more to worry about than angsting over a distro...?

Well, testing suited me until the Squeeze became stable, I'm not talking about bugs, I'm talking about nonsense software, kids and minimum levels of QA.
Don't lecture me about opensource, other Debian derivatives, I know my needs pretty well, and It used to be Debian Testing.
I know that Ubuntu are worse, I don't consider dealing with Canonical a good deal, I don't like the fact that mint sucks in the kernel space.
I think I relate to Debian more than anyone else, actually You don't need to tell me how to contribute, I have another contribution in another Debian based OS, google SphinUX for more info, We already fixed these bugs and we are planning to publish them altogether after the development team finishes them, you'll be amazed by the things that we found in Wheezy, and the looooong Log of development process.
I don't like polished systems, I prefer to work my way out by myself, I prefer to have a bare bone system and start adding to it, so basically, Debian suited me fine when Developers used to care about running their software on their machines before publishing it.
bugs occur when the developers don't pay attention to certain possibilities, that's okay as it's a common thing among experienced developers, but having basic exceptions not handled is not acceptable (ie file not found exception handling).
so please stop taking things in a defensive way, we all need Debian to prosper, this is the thing about FreeSoftware, common good for all.

and don't worry about Egypt, we spend the day at work and night at protests, so we have enough time for coding high quality software

OK, release your anger. This post at least makes some sense in some respects.
Yes, I agree, Debian developers are not the same as they used to be.
But how far back are you going and which old school devs are you referring too?
It helps us understand where you are coming from.
Because face it, do you know of any current development that does not face
the issue you mention throughout this thread?
After all, if there were only the old timers still working on the OS
some of the new "excellent" packages might not have ever gotten included.

Finally, someone who has the courage for criticism, now I can release my anger.
when I refer to old school devs, I refer to the days when you would be running testing without having to worry about if it's gonna work on your machine or not, I refer to the days when Debian was a good place to start hacking a Linux system with a minimum level of bug solving.
The case is general by the way, but I wouldn't expect it in Debian "The mighty stable distribution", I find kids everywhere, networking, IT managers, sys-admins, coders, etc ...

I don't want old timers to be alive or concerned about the development process "we don't wanna an ADA based text editor from the CLI", we don't wanna retro software, we need the newcomers to be taught the old times techniques, we need the old timers for teaching those kids how to value each byte of memory, we need them to teach the newcomers how to use their powerful machines to create pieces of art, not to waste resources on nonsense.

by the way, what's wrong with synaptic these days, it makes Xorg bloating memory when I select more than a couple hundreds of packages.

The most efficient code is 0 bit in size.

Please start living up to your sig and stop using computers altogether.

please start reading something about computer history

[SibirskiiVolk]

Oh and you might try testing your self on this machine, a fresh installation wouldn't start, plymouth seems to freeze while booting
Machine: Compaq CQ57
lspci output:

Code: Select all

00:00.0 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] Family 14h Processor Root Complex
00:01.0 VGA compatible controller: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] nee ATI Wrestler [Radeon HD 6310]
00:11.0 SATA controller: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] nee ATI SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 SATA Controller [AHCI mode]
00:12.0 USB controller: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] nee ATI SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 USB OHCI0 Controller
00:12.2 USB controller: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] nee ATI SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 USB EHCI Controller
00:14.0 SMBus: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] nee ATI SBx00 SMBus Controller (rev 42)
00:14.2 Audio device: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] nee ATI SBx00 Azalia (Intel HDA) (rev 40)
00:14.3 ISA bridge: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] nee ATI SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 LPC host controller (rev 40)
00:14.4 PCI bridge: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] nee ATI SBx00 PCI to PCI Bridge (rev 40)
00:14.5 USB controller: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] nee ATI SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 USB OHCI2 Controller
00:15.0 PCI bridge: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] nee ATI SB700/SB800/SB900 PCI to PCI bridge (PCIE port 0)
00:15.1 PCI bridge: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] nee ATI SB700/SB800/SB900 PCI to PCI bridge (PCIE port 1)
00:15.3 PCI bridge: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] nee ATI SB900 PCI to PCI bridge (PCIE port 3)
00:16.0 USB controller: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] nee ATI SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 USB OHCI0 Controller
00:16.2 USB controller: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] nee ATI SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 USB EHCI Controller
00:18.0 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] Family 12h/14h Processor Function 0 (rev 43)
00:18.1 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] Family 12h/14h Processor Function 1
00:18.2 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] Family 12h/14h Processor Function 2
00:18.3 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] Family 12h/14h Processor Function 3
00:18.4 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] Family 12h/14h Processor Function 4
00:18.5 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] Family 12h/14h Processor Function 6
00:18.6 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] Family 12h/14h Processor Function 5
00:18.7 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] Family 12h/14h Processor Function 7
02:00.0 Unassigned class [ff00]: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTS5209 PCI Express Card Reader (rev 01)
06:00.0 Ethernet controller: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL8101E/RTL8102E PCI Express Fast Ethernet controller (rev 05)
07:00.0 Network controller: Broadcom Corporation BCM4313 802.11b/g/n Wireless LAN Controller (rev 01)

I'd really love to hear the solution, may be I'll start a thread for it.
I'll start posting issues one by one, I'll post the solutions I've found, And I'll be contributing to this forum, I really never had to, but since issues require more attention from experienced developers, I'll be here if that helps to raise the Quality of Debian, you really need the old timers around.
[/b]

[AnInkedSoul]

Oh and you might try testing your self on this machine, a fresh installation wouldn't start, plymouth seems to freeze while booting

why are you using plymouth then?

send me the machine and I will take care of it

[AnInkedSoul]

when I refer to old school devs, I refer to the days when you would be running testing without having to worry about if it's gonna work on your machine or not, I refer to the days when Debian was a good place to start hacking a Linux system with a minimum level of bug solving.

what year was that? I do not recall it

[SibirskiiVolk]

Oh and you might try testing your self on this machine, a fresh installation wouldn't start, plymouth seems to freeze while booting

why are you using plymouth then?

send me the machine and I will take care of it

Shouldn't I use a software that I love? well sending the machine wont be easy, mail services are not trusted these days
I'm telling you the problem is not plymouth, it's the ATI driver, it's broken, the recovery mode don't start either, so debugging is kinda hard here.
actually we verified that the cause of this problem is the ATI driver, we tried a fresh install from the same testing DVD on a copy of that machine, another machine with an ATI hybrid graphics card, a machine with a GMA X3100 (Kinda old) and an machine with NVidia card
it only worked with the nVidia and the intel machine, so if that helps, we might need to check the ATI free driver (the driver also crashes on the same machine on an upgraded from Squeeze machine, I had to try different combinations of Xorg, mesa and xserver-xorg-video-radeon) and it seems to work fine from the upgraded version, but still the issue exists when I try to chroot and install these packages for the fresh installation.

[cynwulf]

Well, testing suited me until the Squeeze became stable, I'm not talking about bugs, I'm talking about nonsense software, kids and minimum levels of QA.

No idea what you're talking about, name names, give detailed examples and define the "nonsense software" please.

Don't lecture me about opensource, other Debian derivatives, I know my needs pretty well, and It used to be Debian Testing.

It used to be, clearly it isn't any more. Debian may never again suit your needs and ranting here is unlikely to change that.

You don't need to tell me how to contribute

Is ranting here contributing? Do you think devs are reading? Tried the mailing list or actually getting involved to try and make a difference? Reported bugs? Removed the "nonsense software"?

so please stop taking things in a defensive way, we all need Debian to prosper, this is the thing about FreeSoftware, common good for all.

But you're still ranting at the wrong people...

[cynwulf]

Shouldn't I use a software that I love?

"Nonsense software"?

I'm telling you the problem is not plymouth, it's the ATI driver, it's broken, the recovery mode don't start either, so debugging is kinda hard here.
actually we verified that the cause of this problem is the ATI driver, we tried a fresh install from the same testing DVD on a copy of that machine, another machine with an ATI hybrid graphics card, a machine with a GMA X3100 (Kinda old) and an machine with NVidia card
it only worked with the nVidia and the intel machine, so if that helps, we might need to check the ATI free driver (the driver also crashes on the same machine on an upgraded from Squeeze machine, I had to try different combinations of Xorg, mesa and xserver-xorg-video-radeon) and it seems to work fine from the upgraded version, but still the issue exists when I try to chroot and install these packages for the fresh installation.

So... what exactly has the proprietary ATI/AMD binary driver got to do with Debian...?

[sportscrazed2]

Weird I hate people who use testing or unstable and then bitch when an update breaks something. That is the whole point in testing/unstable is that they are the development grounds for the next stable. Sometimes fixing one thing breaks another. Stable is released when all the major broken stuff is fixed. So if you want stable use stable. Otherwise if you find a bug report it or fix it but don't complain.

[SibirskiiVolk]

Weird I hate people who use testing or unstable and then bitch when an update breaks something. That is the whole point in testing/unstable is that they are the development grounds for the next stable. Sometimes fixing one thing breaks another. Stable is released when all the major broken stuff is fixed. So if you want stable use stable. Otherwise if you find a bug report it or fix it but don't complain.

I don't hate you, the title is kinda metaphoric, it refers to the developers not you poor users, you share the same experience that I face, so This thread is for people who hates the kids writing those buggy software.

Shouldn't I use a software that I love?

"Nonsense software"?

I'm telling you the problem is not plymouth, it's the ATI driver, it's broken, the recovery mode don't start either, so debugging is kinda hard here.
actually we verified that the cause of this problem is the ATI driver, we tried a fresh install from the same testing DVD on a copy of that machine, another machine with an ATI hybrid graphics card, a machine with a GMA X3100 (Kinda old) and an machine with NVidia card
it only worked with the nVidia and the intel machine, so if that helps, we might need to check the ATI free driver (the driver also crashes on the same machine on an upgraded from Squeeze machine, I had to try different combinations of Xorg, mesa and xserver-xorg-video-radeon) and it seems to work fine from the upgraded version, but still the issue exists when I try to chroot and install these packages for the fresh installation.

So... what exactly has the proprietary ATI/AMD binary driver got to do with Debian...?

I said the free driver, not the proprietary driver, actually I'm amazed by the free driver "never worked for me before"

and no sir, plymouth isn't nonsense software, when I said nonsense software I meant something that is obsolete or not needed any more "who would still need a PDP emulator? who has a trident graphics card?" these things are dead already, I used to use these machines many years ago, but I wouldn't even find them anymore, If you find a machine with Neomagic, tell me so I can happily purchase .